Stop bashing "P2F"
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: over there
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The problem will become apparent to you, my Young friend, when 5 years from now you are overlooked for an upgrade to captain because other pilots are paying 15000 pounds for the privilege. I bet it will be all laughs and giggles when you find yourself flying right seat with a captain who's just bought YOUR left-seat. Oh boy oh boy if those ragged faux-sheepskin seats could speak eh buddy! They'd share a few select cuss words alright.
Or when your company changes aircraft types and you have pale 19-year old DREAMERS crawling over each other eager to pay the conversion fee of 20000 pounds while you stand to the side thinking "Like, WTF mate?"
You will kick and scream and call them w-ores, sell-outs and so on. But you know, it takes one to know one. The next interview you have, the guy will know one thing about you at least. That you will pay for whatever he wants you to pay for.
The point is this and you will remember these words ten years from reading them: Someone else behind you will always have fewer brains and more money than you and they will purchase whatever you think should be earned. To "live their like, dream, mate, innit".
You WILL be paying money one way or the other during your career for:
Uniform
Insurance
Accomodation on night stops
Upgrade to captain
Line-training
Aircraft type changes
Base change
You will see a decline in salary
You will lose your pension plan if you have one
Because other people on this planet are prepared to pay for these things, you will end up paying too. The race to the bottom is happening right now and you my friend are running full throttle and bragging about it. "Like...WTF innit mate, whateva..."
Get it? No? Give it some time.
Or when your company changes aircraft types and you have pale 19-year old DREAMERS crawling over each other eager to pay the conversion fee of 20000 pounds while you stand to the side thinking "Like, WTF mate?"
You will kick and scream and call them w-ores, sell-outs and so on. But you know, it takes one to know one. The next interview you have, the guy will know one thing about you at least. That you will pay for whatever he wants you to pay for.
The point is this and you will remember these words ten years from reading them: Someone else behind you will always have fewer brains and more money than you and they will purchase whatever you think should be earned. To "live their like, dream, mate, innit".
You WILL be paying money one way or the other during your career for:
Uniform
Insurance
Accomodation on night stops
Upgrade to captain
Line-training
Aircraft type changes
Base change
You will see a decline in salary
You will lose your pension plan if you have one
Because other people on this planet are prepared to pay for these things, you will end up paying too. The race to the bottom is happening right now and you my friend are running full throttle and bragging about it. "Like...WTF innit mate, whateva..."
Get it? No? Give it some time.
.Unfortunately the bean counters rule and the only way things are going to change is when there is a smoking hole filled with dead people with an incompetent Pilot Flying that could just keep paying until he passed......
This is the industries dirty little secret that travelers addicted to low fares don't want to know about. However sooner or later the inevitable is going to happen and they are going to demand change.
When that happens mister " I am 19 and I bought my jet job" are going to have to walk the pilot talk. Good luck, with your attitude you are going to need it......
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: flying by night
Posts: 500
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't think people care a lot about the particular person who started this thread...great trolling, smoothly written...but the problem is real, and that's what people respond to 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: nowhere
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cheetah
Don't you understand the difference? The Airforce Cadet is selected on MERIT, needs to prove that they are worthy of it. Anyone who meets the criteria can apply regardless of circumstance and he/she is PAID the going rate and provides a return of service to their country for which they MAY just forfeit their life, either in a conflict or training for one.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having left it nearly 24 hours since the inception of this thread, I am still confused by the title? "stop bashing "P2F." Pay to Fly? I had always assumed this referred to the vanity publishing type of operators in the world, that charge people for a period of line training with no real prospect of remunerated employment at the conclusion of that "training."
In this case, the poster seems to have completed an integrated (presumably MPL) training course at Oxford, as part of that airlines ab-initio cadet programme. The job/placement and type rating, whilst not guaranteed, were an integral part of the course for which he/she was selected. The "P2F" is in reality pay to train. That is pretty much what every civilian pilot does to a greater or lesser extent. These courses are expensive, but the placement and type rating inclusive aspects offset less expensive courses where those elements are anything but integral.
Going back to the content of the post and reading it again after a days hiatus, as well as putting aside any perceptions of "cockiness" etc. He is very probably right. I regularly advise going down the "cadet" route as being the best fasttrack path into career airline flying these days. In those airlines with these programmes, it is often the methodology utilized by the sons and daughters of long incumbent professional pilots. This is in essence what the poster is saying, and to that extent he is right.
The poster perhaps shows a lack of sensitivity to those in a position less fortunate than his own, but nothing he has said is fundamentally inaccurate.
Perhaps he will be an IRE/TRE in 10 years (or less?) Who knows. I have certainly seen people in his position go on to achieve those appointments, and deservedly so.
He or she is 19. Some off the sharp edges will wear off with increased maturity (hopefully!) That, together with an increased degree of self awareness and tact, certainly will, if the poster is to achieve their longer term objectives. However, he hasn't done anything wrong. He has read the market and perhaps followed the advice of others who have done just that.
In this case, the poster seems to have completed an integrated (presumably MPL) training course at Oxford, as part of that airlines ab-initio cadet programme. The job/placement and type rating, whilst not guaranteed, were an integral part of the course for which he/she was selected. The "P2F" is in reality pay to train. That is pretty much what every civilian pilot does to a greater or lesser extent. These courses are expensive, but the placement and type rating inclusive aspects offset less expensive courses where those elements are anything but integral.
Going back to the content of the post and reading it again after a days hiatus, as well as putting aside any perceptions of "cockiness" etc. He is very probably right. I regularly advise going down the "cadet" route as being the best fasttrack path into career airline flying these days. In those airlines with these programmes, it is often the methodology utilized by the sons and daughters of long incumbent professional pilots. This is in essence what the poster is saying, and to that extent he is right.
The poster perhaps shows a lack of sensitivity to those in a position less fortunate than his own, but nothing he has said is fundamentally inaccurate.
Perhaps he will be an IRE/TRE in 10 years (or less?) Who knows. I have certainly seen people in his position go on to achieve those appointments, and deservedly so.
He or she is 19. Some off the sharp edges will wear off with increased maturity (hopefully!) That, together with an increased degree of self awareness and tact, certainly will, if the poster is to achieve their longer term objectives. However, he hasn't done anything wrong. He has read the market and perhaps followed the advice of others who have done just that.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mind you though, apart from the troll crowing, what's the difference between someone cruising into an airline job as a divine right on someone else's money and an air force pilot, all of whose training has been at the expense of the public purse, doing the same thing?
3500 hours military and I've earned every one of them.
Last edited by VinRouge; 19th Jan 2014 at 10:10.
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Asia
Posts: 284
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with Bealzebub. I would add more :
One thing is sure, the job is changing a lot.
Nowadays, we still a multi crew in cockpit just because it's a law.
Companies would be happy to have only one pilot.
So, how they get around the law ? By making cadets paying or P2F. It is as if economically there was only one pilot.
The pilot job is more about supervising now and will be more like this again day after day. One day, with full automation, only one operator will be needed in a cockpit, with ATC remote control in case of problems.
JUst read futur projects, they focus alot on full automation traffic control.
Putting cadets in a cockpit of a shiny jet at 19 y/o show how "easy" it is to be a pilot without experience nowadays.
Pilots became a machine in a machine, by doing all procedures again and again in order (like a music sheet) to get a plane flying.
And it will become more like this, as the sky is full of planes, so the separation minimum will reduce. Then cockpit will become more complex with automation but more simple to manage.
One thing is sure, the job is changing a lot.
Nowadays, we still a multi crew in cockpit just because it's a law.
Companies would be happy to have only one pilot.
So, how they get around the law ? By making cadets paying or P2F. It is as if economically there was only one pilot.
The pilot job is more about supervising now and will be more like this again day after day. One day, with full automation, only one operator will be needed in a cockpit, with ATC remote control in case of problems.
JUst read futur projects, they focus alot on full automation traffic control.
Putting cadets in a cockpit of a shiny jet at 19 y/o show how "easy" it is to be a pilot without experience nowadays.
Pilots became a machine in a machine, by doing all procedures again and again in order (like a music sheet) to get a plane flying.
And it will become more like this, as the sky is full of planes, so the separation minimum will reduce. Then cockpit will become more complex with automation but more simple to manage.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 189
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is an ongoing tirade on here against p2f im interested in who these threads are referring to. Are there companies out there actually undertaking p2f in the UK in 2014? Or are these threads referring to overseas airlines and pilot positions?
Unless im mistaken, reference seems to be british airlines .... But im struggling to understand which UK based jobs are p2f in 2014?
British airlines recruit ex military, already rated elsewhere, turboprop, instructor and some cadets to top the previously listed up to give a mix of experienced guys/gals with a smattering of inexperienced youngsters? So are these threads referring to p2f schemes abroad. Or am I missing something?
Unless im mistaken, reference seems to be british airlines .... But im struggling to understand which UK based jobs are p2f in 2014?
British airlines recruit ex military, already rated elsewhere, turboprop, instructor and some cadets to top the previously listed up to give a mix of experienced guys/gals with a smattering of inexperienced youngsters? So are these threads referring to p2f schemes abroad. Or am I missing something?
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: The Kitchen
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
He is right guys. Why should the airlines pay to train people in on their equipment? Dont you know their aircraft make as much money sitting on the ground as they do in the air? In fact why don't the pilots pay for fuel and maintenance as well, after all they are logging the hours and not management.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In a far better place
Posts: 2,480
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From a delusional 19 and Flying A Jet
I can only hope that this thread was started by a troll looking to raise the hackles of pilot who got their jobs through honest means.
There was not luck whatsoever in you getting a job with EZJet. How can you make such a statement? You were not even self sponsored. How much did your Father and Grand Father pay for their jobs?
Don't insult this forum by insisting you paid for your training with your own funds. You were fortunate enough to have the financial backing of your family. Poppa and Grand Dad are also a part of the problem rather part of the solution. They are enablers of the system and deserve comment too. Financially, 19 you had your ratings and job handed to you on a silver platter. Too bad your family members, also airline pilots condone the instant gratification route to cockpit rather than honest means through instructing, missionary flying or charter.
Enlighten us 19... who footed the bill for your flight training?
How about those who paid for their own ratings, built up time through instructing or charter flying? Don't you think they are more deserving than you? What makes you more eligible for the job them?
I will say this 19... you were lucky to be born into a family with an aviation background... that it. You are a member of the privileged.
You are not qualified nor mature to give advise. Don't insult the intelligence of this forum to say you paid for all your ratings on your own. You were most fortunate to have your Pop and Grand Dad help you get to where you are today.
Perhaps 19, your thread should have been a testimonial of thanks to Dad and Grand Dad for sponsoring your training. Too bad for them there was not one acknowledgement to them for their support for you either. That's a sign of ingratitude and immaturity on hour behalf.
As long as there are ungrateful miscreants, such as yourself 19 who are willing to short cut their way into the cockpit, there'll always be P2F schemes.
I can only hope that this thread was started by a troll looking to raise the hackles of pilot who got their jobs through honest means.
I'm 19-years-old. I got a job with easyJet two months after my nineteenth birthday and I now have just over 200 hours on type to go with the 160 I got at OAA. I'm lucky and I believe you make your own luck in flying. This is also based on what I'm told being a third generation pilot with both my Father and my Grandad flying forty-plus year careers with British Airways and it's predecessors.
P2F is the future because it makes no sense in growing older after having just paid all the money you do to obtain a fATPL and sitting on your backside doing 
, working menial jobs or taking flying positions that don't allow you do to what you ultimately want - fly a jet. If you are happy to piston pound and fly turboprops all day, fair play, but don't bash someone who invests in their future by paying money for something that ALL the airlines today want - a type rating and hours on type.
, working menial jobs or taking flying positions that don't allow you do to what you ultimately want - fly a jet. If you are happy to piston pound and fly turboprops all day, fair play, but don't bash someone who invests in their future by paying money for something that ALL the airlines today want - a type rating and hours on type.
It is a gamble but you don't get anywhere without taking a risk. I did not pay for my type rating or my line training and I was lucky that I went straight in from OAA.
How about those who paid for their own ratings, built up time through instructing or charter flying? Don't you think they are more deserving than you? What makes you more eligible for the job them?
Others are not as lucky and are making their own luck. If you do not have the money, cannot justify it or are for whatever reason unable to pay for a type rating or hours on type, it's going to be a long wait for you to get a job in this climate on a jet and even if you are able, you'll essentially pay for it through a lesser salary or in another way.
My advice is if you have the money, pay it and take a leap of faith - everyone will eventually have to do the same, you'll just reap the rewards earlier.
Perhaps 19, your thread should have been a testimonial of thanks to Dad and Grand Dad for sponsoring your training. Too bad for them there was not one acknowledgement to them for their support for you either. That's a sign of ingratitude and immaturity on hour behalf.
As long as there are ungrateful miscreants, such as yourself 19 who are willing to short cut their way into the cockpit, there'll always be P2F schemes.
Last edited by captjns; 19th Jan 2014 at 14:36.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: On the wrong side of the equator
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
19?
19?
shut the
up…..
do you really think you are a professional?
flying a jet is not the dream of the pilots in this forum.
Being professional aviators is the ultimate goal aimed by people here.
Plus its not like you are flying an AV-8 Sea Harrier, right?
So please get humble and learn about about aviation, your attitude is the one of an unsafe pilot, no matter how good your piloting skills are, and i believe easyjet hr would agree.
P2f is ridicoulous. you skip the entire process of being a confident decision maker while flying something smaller than a 320.
And you skip the learning process of the basic flying skills that you ll ultimately need in case your 320 will stop working for you.
So please think again, before you press the mike.
shut the
up…..do you really think you are a professional?
flying a jet is not the dream of the pilots in this forum.
Being professional aviators is the ultimate goal aimed by people here.
Plus its not like you are flying an AV-8 Sea Harrier, right?
So please get humble and learn about about aviation, your attitude is the one of an unsafe pilot, no matter how good your piloting skills are, and i believe easyjet hr would agree.
P2f is ridicoulous. you skip the entire process of being a confident decision maker while flying something smaller than a 320.
And you skip the learning process of the basic flying skills that you ll ultimately need in case your 320 will stop working for you.
So please think again, before you press the mike.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Germany
Age: 47
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
controversary thread with much fuel to feed the fire.
the very vast majority o people here is a big fan of aviation and would love to fly for a profession but the modern way how this is done never gave them a chance. so of course this people do not support a young guy who was fed with money of his parents to be finally pushed inside a real airliner cockpit where the others have to work on the ground to feed themself and their families and never got a chance inside a cockpit to do what they would love to do . dreams of a better aviation world, the old days and also frustrations about reality arouse.
well, on the one hand this guy is roughly right how the modern aviation works , somebody may like it or not.
on the other hand he may crash and burn when he laughes about people who earn their own money and stand on their own feet but never got a chance , and trying to be mr badass with 19 years opens many opportunities to finally be wrong. the company may not be interested anymore when cashflow ceases and they cannot squeeze more out of him. then you may end up on the street with 200 hours on type and a rating but no hope for a "real" job where you can start to feed yourself and your family.
best regards
the very vast majority o people here is a big fan of aviation and would love to fly for a profession but the modern way how this is done never gave them a chance. so of course this people do not support a young guy who was fed with money of his parents to be finally pushed inside a real airliner cockpit where the others have to work on the ground to feed themself and their families and never got a chance inside a cockpit to do what they would love to do . dreams of a better aviation world, the old days and also frustrations about reality arouse.
well, on the one hand this guy is roughly right how the modern aviation works , somebody may like it or not.
on the other hand he may crash and burn when he laughes about people who earn their own money and stand on their own feet but never got a chance , and trying to be mr badass with 19 years opens many opportunities to finally be wrong. the company may not be interested anymore when cashflow ceases and they cannot squeeze more out of him. then you may end up on the street with 200 hours on type and a rating but no hope for a "real" job where you can start to feed yourself and your family.
best regards
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 1,279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
He's a troll.
He's rolled a contentious 'hand grenade' into a forum where people have deep seated feelings for and against and is laughing at the explosion.
Must admit, a few posts have made me chuckle, especially those who want to 'blame' something, someone!
He's rolled a contentious 'hand grenade' into a forum where people have deep seated feelings for and against and is laughing at the explosion.
Must admit, a few posts have made me chuckle, especially those who want to 'blame' something, someone!
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In a far better place
Posts: 2,480
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wirbelsturm says:
Probably true. Only 2 posts to his credit. I would wager a guess he creates new names before he pulls the pin.
Although when I was with FR, I had a couple of 19 year olds in the right seat. Good humble chaps with level heads, as I recall.
He's a troll. He's rolled a contentious 'hand grenade' into a forum where people have deep seated feelings for and against and is laughing at the explosion.
Although when I was with FR, I had a couple of 19 year olds in the right seat. Good humble chaps with level heads, as I recall.
I usually ignore threads like this and the OP is very obviously a wind-up merchant but I have decided that the time has come for me to comment upon the so-called Wealthy Bank of Mum and Dad syndrome.
Those of you who know me on pprune will remeber that I spent 47 years flying aircraft productively. (I never flew for BA - nor did I ever want to).
One of my sons showed a great interest and an ability to get involved in aviation. I encouraged him and he did all the right things like joining the Air Cadets, delivering newspapers and working in shops.
He went solo at 16 and got his PPL at 17.
He worked in the local flying club and spent his summer holidays baggage handling etc. He would do almost anything to raise money to go flying.
He wanted to go flying in a professional manner. My son is a very nice person (nicer than me) and he had potential (in my opinion) so we sat him down and had a family conference. We calculated what it would cost for him to go through university on a three-year course and what it would cost us to support him to do a fATPL.
We gave him the choice; university or flying.
He chose flying.
I simply could not have afforded the CTC/OAA route so it had to be a modular route for him.
He started off by going up to London every morning to do the ATPL written exams at London Met. He passed every subject first time.
Next, after a great deal of research, he went to Stapleford. He passed his CPL and his IR first time.
He was sitting at the Ops Desk in the local flying club one morning and he was trying to get on to a website to apply for a Boeing 737 course. The website wasn't working very well so he called them up (in Sweden) to tell them how to fix their website (the arrogance of youth). After the technical discussion, he was told, by the way, we have had a dropout - can you be in Stockholm on Tuesday?
He called me at home and I told him to go for it but I warned him that he would have to repay the cost of his type rating course to me. He got his Boeing 737 rating just after his 20th birthday.
Within 2 years he had repaid my wife and I every single penny.
He has now been in the left seat for almost three years without breaking anything and I am very proud of him.
You might not agree with me but I am a pragmatist. At the time my son was seriously involved in pursuing professional aviation, the RAF, which was his first choice, were not even considering recruiting. Neither were BA or any other sensible airlines.
So, in a nutshell, I helped my son when he needed it and he has repaid me in spades.
I strongly suspect that the naysayers on this thread either have no hope of ever persuading anyone in their family, their bank managers or anyone else in the aviation world (or anywhere else) to train them for free or they have already been judged not fit for purpose and been invited to go and grow mushrooms instead.
So how am I to be judged? As an ex-TRI/TRE, I have assessed thousands of pilots in everything from gliders to airliners. I do not consider that I was a
P2F collaborator. I simply supported my son in his flying career and the results have been excellent.
Incidentally, I always find the comments from the "far too young" clan quite interesting. I was a training captain on a four turboprop aircarft in the RAF at the age of 25.
Those of you who know me on pprune will remeber that I spent 47 years flying aircraft productively. (I never flew for BA - nor did I ever want to).
One of my sons showed a great interest and an ability to get involved in aviation. I encouraged him and he did all the right things like joining the Air Cadets, delivering newspapers and working in shops.
He went solo at 16 and got his PPL at 17.
He worked in the local flying club and spent his summer holidays baggage handling etc. He would do almost anything to raise money to go flying.
He wanted to go flying in a professional manner. My son is a very nice person (nicer than me) and he had potential (in my opinion) so we sat him down and had a family conference. We calculated what it would cost for him to go through university on a three-year course and what it would cost us to support him to do a fATPL.
We gave him the choice; university or flying.
He chose flying.
I simply could not have afforded the CTC/OAA route so it had to be a modular route for him.
He started off by going up to London every morning to do the ATPL written exams at London Met. He passed every subject first time.
Next, after a great deal of research, he went to Stapleford. He passed his CPL and his IR first time.
He was sitting at the Ops Desk in the local flying club one morning and he was trying to get on to a website to apply for a Boeing 737 course. The website wasn't working very well so he called them up (in Sweden) to tell them how to fix their website (the arrogance of youth). After the technical discussion, he was told, by the way, we have had a dropout - can you be in Stockholm on Tuesday?
He called me at home and I told him to go for it but I warned him that he would have to repay the cost of his type rating course to me. He got his Boeing 737 rating just after his 20th birthday.
Within 2 years he had repaid my wife and I every single penny.
He has now been in the left seat for almost three years without breaking anything and I am very proud of him.
You might not agree with me but I am a pragmatist. At the time my son was seriously involved in pursuing professional aviation, the RAF, which was his first choice, were not even considering recruiting. Neither were BA or any other sensible airlines.
So, in a nutshell, I helped my son when he needed it and he has repaid me in spades.
I strongly suspect that the naysayers on this thread either have no hope of ever persuading anyone in their family, their bank managers or anyone else in the aviation world (or anywhere else) to train them for free or they have already been judged not fit for purpose and been invited to go and grow mushrooms instead.
So how am I to be judged? As an ex-TRI/TRE, I have assessed thousands of pilots in everything from gliders to airliners. I do not consider that I was a
P2F collaborator. I simply supported my son in his flying career and the results have been excellent.
Incidentally, I always find the comments from the "far too young" clan quite interesting. I was a training captain on a four turboprop aircarft in the RAF at the age of 25.