PPRuNe Forums

Go Back   PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Terms and Endearment
Forgotten your Username/Password?

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 9th Nov 2012, 06:40   #1 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 186
Iberia to Lose 4500 jobs - 25 airframes

The news has just been announced on the Beeb; 4500 jobs along with 25 airframes. IAG has set a deadline of the end of january for negotiations (?) with unions. Just what Spain needs.

Last edited by MaxReheat; 9th Nov 2012 at 06:48.
MaxReheat is offline   Reply
Old 9th Nov 2012, 07:01   #2 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Dark side of the force
Age: 45
Posts: 287
What Iberia needs is to get rid of IAG, since Brits arrived to management the company is a disaster, BA needs Madrid for it´s long haul routes and slots and politics in Spain, together with their colleagues, will do whatever is needed to get the money and run.

The problem in Spain is not the people, hard workers and very good professionals, the problem are the politics.
transilvana is offline   Reply
Old 9th Nov 2012, 07:06   #3 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 5,229
Iberia........ Twenty years behind the market

Over twenty years ago under Lord King BA went through this sort of cost cutting, at the time it hurt but BA has emerged as a competitive airline.

Iberia needs the same sort of radical changes to survive I feel for the people who will suffer the job losses especially as Spain is going through very hard times but this reorganization should have started years ago, if it had then the jobs could have been lost by retirements and a recruting freeze.

As usual poor management hurts those at the bottom the most.

Last edited by A and C; 9th Nov 2012 at 07:42.
A and C is offline   Reply
Old 9th Nov 2012, 07:15   #4 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 956
Quote:
since Brits arrived to management the company is a disaster
Funniest thing I've ever read!

Iberia has NEVER made an operating profit. They have always been underpinned by the Government either local or from central. Their working practices are antiquated, their fleets are a mix of several different aircraft types and manufacturers making an engineering nightmare and their Unions are set in the stone age.

The old Iberia management don't want to sort things out 'in house'. Confronted with a problem their 'soloution' is to sell, outsource and lease back as they believe that will make all their problems go away.

The grass roots Spanish worker may well be hard working but they don't want to be as productive as they could be.

As painful as it will be Iberia itself, and those remaining (no-one knows the front line/back office split yet) will be a better, hopefully profitable, airline.

Without radical restructuring Iberia would go to the wall in pretty short order. Don't believe me then look at the restructuring that AF is having to undergo at the moment.

Irrespective of who pushes the changes through the changes themselves were inevitable.
Wirbelsturm is offline   Reply
Old 9th Nov 2012, 07:26   #5 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: on the golf course
Posts: 1,991
Quote:
..... their fleets are a mix of several different aircraft types and manufacturers
Not nowadays, it would seem. From elsewhere I glean the fleet to be:

A319 19
A320 25
A321 19
A340-300 16
A340-600 17

of which 20 shorthaul and 5 longhaul airframes to be cut from the fleet.
TopBunk is online now   Reply
Old 9th Nov 2012, 07:40   #6 (permalink)
A4

Ut Sementem Feeceris
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,339
So IAG are going to chop 20 shorthaul airframes (and associated crew) - just as they bid to buy the rest of Vueling. So the Iberia unions made things "difficult" and the company just simply goes for the nuclear option.

Modern MBA management technique. Two birds with one stone. Reduce costs significantly and "stick it" to the union in one swoop.They're really playing hardball - Willie probably doesn't want another long drawn out saga like the BA cabin crew/UNTIE fiasco.

Have to agree with Wirbelsturms comments re Iberia management.
A4 is offline   Reply
Old 9th Nov 2012, 07:41   #7 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 956
Top Bunk,

True, alot of the MD-80's and regional jets were farmed out a fair few years back.

Perhaps engineering might be a bit easier to tame.
Wirbelsturm is offline   Reply
Old 9th Nov 2012, 07:50   #8 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 956
Quote:
Rafael Sánchez-Lozano, Iberia’s chief executive, said: “Iberia is in fight for survival. It is unprofitable in all its markets. We have to take tough decisions now to save the company and return it to profitability. Unless we take radical action to introduce permanent structural change the future for the airline is bleak. However this plan gives us a platform to turn the business around and grow.
BA (not IAG) 9 Month operating profit: £232m
Iberia 9 Month operating loss: £262m

As much as it pains me for those losing jobs at Iberia I don't see how they could have continued as they were.

The entire restructuring plan and the costs involved with implementation are coming from within Iberia itself. It would seem this is the completion of a two year radical mamangement rethink of the business direction.

As I said before, the outcome was fairly inevitable.
Wirbelsturm is offline   Reply
Old 9th Nov 2012, 08:11   #9 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: In front of a computer
Posts: 1,253
Quote:
A319 19
A320 25
A321 19
A340-300 16
A340-600 17
What we need is an actual Iberia Pilot to come here and confirm whether these types are flown as individual fleets (no CCQ) or in the more usual way with single aisle types together and longhaul together.
ETOPS is offline   Reply
Old 9th Nov 2012, 08:31   #10 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Dark side of the force
Age: 45
Posts: 287
Quote:
BA (not IAG) 9 Month operating profit: £232m
Iberia 9 Month operating loss: £262m
Well, those are not the numbers I have. In the last 12 years before merging with BA Iberia had a profit of 4.000 million €. After the merging Iberia only get looses?

You guys out there don´t see the the story and it´s quite simple. This is game between 3 colleagues who want to make as much money as possible and have no idea of this business. Iberia is not BA, BA wants to be like Iberia.

So I´m Iberia, I open a low cost named ClickAir, but I sell it, then I open another low cost named Express, but now I want another low cost named vueling and I close my express which openned 1 year ago, in bewteen I buy and sale and I get the commssion because... I´m smart!!!!

Please, wake up. If I would be an Iberia worker I would go on strike for ever and go to hell with management.
transilvana is offline   Reply
Old 9th Nov 2012, 08:39   #11 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: The blasted heath
Posts: 142
IB needs to restructure to survive and with Vueling being brought in house I cannot see much future for its shorthaul operation.
gcal is offline   Reply
Old 9th Nov 2012, 08:44   #12 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Israel, Kazakhstan, Spain
Posts: 224
@TRansilvania

I have sympathy to those whom may loose their jobs, however, one of the many problems with Iberia is Customer Service, I live in Spain and avoid Iberia at all costs (at least 60 sectors a year with OneWorld). I was even told by their VIP Customer Service department that there is no culture of customer service within Iberia. Please remember as a SLF we have a choice, and I will take my money elsewhere, even if it is BA or Vueling. My personal opinion is please let those wonderful staff you speak of whom should go on "strike", and maybe that will be the final nail in the coffin.
Aksai Oiler is offline   Reply
Old 9th Nov 2012, 08:58   #13 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: The blasted heath
Posts: 142
Vueling are to start LGW/BCN in direct competition with another IAG company BA which will (at long last) re-open the route in February.
Call me suspicious but I do not imagine this will be the sole route for Vueling from LGW for very long.
gcal is offline   Reply
Old 9th Nov 2012, 09:25   #14 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Spain
Posts: 39
Some of the stuff one must read.....

I´m going to go ahead and strip this down in chronological order:

1: IB CEO Fernando Conte is against a mere with BA. BA is deep in the RED due to a fantastic pension fund. BA cannot continue to grow in LHW. IB is doing very well on its own because it has a very specific market in South America, son it does NOT need BA under any circumstances.

2: Board of directors sacks mr. Conte, and replaces him with mr. Rafael Sanchez Lozano, he in turn will turn IB upside down, if he must, in order to fill his bank account with dirty money that he will be paid in order to allow the merge.

3: IAG is born.

4: IBX is created because IB short-medium haul routes are bleeding..... BS! Union tries by all means to block IBX from emerging, 1: because it goes against IB's pilots collective bargain, and this under Spanish law is ILLEGAL. 2: because it will obviously cause redundancy in IB.

5: IB union offers a package to the board of directors. This package includes IB co-pilots upgrading in IBX under IBX salary and conditions, and then moving back into IB by strict order of seniority. Board declines this measure, whilst it wont cost them a penny more.... wtf????

6: IBX grows whilst IB short-medium haul shrinks.

7: BA takes over some of IB long haul (and very profitable by the way) routes.

8: IB plans to sack 4500.

This is yet again another DRAKE scenario to which we have grown very accustomed to in Spain.

Don´t get me wrong, it is not entirely BA to blame, in fact, once again, this is a greedy Spaniards fault, motivated by a thirsty Brit.... I´m sorry if anyone feels hurt by such a harsh truth... Trust me, its going to hurt 4500 unemployed families, more than it will do to your ego.

Remember, it was IB´s gold that was pirated by BA.

It was a greedy bas...... who sold out IB, and turned his crew, now as slaves, into the eye strapped, parrot carrying, pirate from BA.

And by the way, were is the union when its most needed? Are BA pilots happy with this measure? What do they have to say about such an exploit? Why on earth do BA pilots pay BALPA??? Since december 2011 nothing has been said...... It would be wise for a union to have a say in this atrocity, after all, it is in their interest to not allow such a thing to happen, some day, it could be 4500 jobs from BA..

About IB being antiquated.... lets be serious, all large flag airliners are, they have a heavy amount of inertia, BA included.

Personally, I feel hurt and appalled by such madness.

As a Spaniard I feel sold out by businessmen, and sick of being stigmatized mainly by northern Europeans (lazy Spaniards sitting on their back sides all day long, leaching on European funds.....yes, that is exactly what many think about us, why else include us in a herd of swine.... I mean PIGS?), in Spain there are thousands, if not millions of extremely well prepared professionals who are fleeing in order to obtain a job, for instance, Spanish nurses are VERY welcome in England, Germany France......

As a Spaniard I envy governments that would never allow such a raid, and even though we protest every week in the streets, change is taking an awful long time to occur, although the message appears to be reaching the top layers.

So please, before writing any gibberish about IB, please get your facts together, and maybe try to learn something about the new generations in Spain. Start worrying about this matter seriously... Maybe tomorrow AA could be doing the same to BA.... Who knows..

Nice flights
albertofdz is offline   Reply
Old 9th Nov 2012, 09:32   #15 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: London
Posts: 100
No-one likes to see people losing their jobs but claiming that Iberia's losses are a fiction and its employees are the victim of a vast conspiracy by the British against the Spanish will get you absolutely nowhere.

As some have learned from bitter experience, if IAG management is intent on pursuing change they will do it and those that won't engage with management will find themselves sidelined. Far better to accept change is happening and influence it as far as you can.

Anyone who has observed Iberia can see it needs structural reform to survive. BA has already been through this. It wasn't pretty but it's come out much stronger for it.
Omnipresent is offline   Reply
Old 9th Nov 2012, 09:43   #16 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: MAN
Posts: 688
Iberia operating loss 2011 273Mn Euro

BA operating profit 2011 518Mn GBP


The numbers speak for themselves.


IAG - International Airlines Group - Annual Reports
cldrvr is offline   Reply
Old 9th Nov 2012, 10:21   #17 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: The blasted heath
Posts: 142
IB is/was having trouble adapting to modern service styles and attitudes; something not uncommon in Spanish industry. If you've ever tried to change your internet provider in Spain you will know exactly what I mean. You, the customer, has to do all the running.

BA has made hundreds redundant or outsourced them at LGW and probably many more at outstations. It has dealt with a cabin crew strike recently.

IAG will have its work cut out getting IB into some sort of shape but will have learned an awful lot of lessons.

It will also have Vueling which can be expanded to provide much of IBs shorthaul work; which in fact it already does out of BCN where the sight of a mainline IB aircraft is becoming a rare event; a few regional jets hidden away at the end of a long walk down Terminal 1.

Last edited by gcal; 9th Nov 2012 at 10:22.
gcal is offline   Reply
Old 9th Nov 2012, 10:27   #18 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Airport in D'Sun
Age: 40
Posts: 95
Thumbs up

well said albertofdz.
aergid is offline   Reply
Old 9th Nov 2012, 10:28   #19 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: The blasted heath
Posts: 142
@albertofdz

I know many Spanish people and I would never dare to call any of them lazy. They are among the hardest working people I know.
I agree with you that the conditions they work under and the system tends to fight them all the way.
A very small example:
The interior of a block of flats, the public ways on three floors, repainted to a very high standard in two working days by two men.
In the UK it would have taken two weeks!
gcal is offline   Reply
Old 9th Nov 2012, 11:03   #20 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 469
Presumably, the Unions will feed back the key points from IAG's market presentations at today's IR presentations, and give you their opinion of the detailed business plan for Iberia going forwards...
FANS is offline   Reply
Reply
 
 
 


Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 21:40.


vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
© 1996-2012 The Professional Pilots Rumour Network