Terms and EndearmentThe forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.
I think we all understand the market forces that cause this state of affairs. However many industries have ombudsmen, regulators, and law to prevent exploitation of market forces to an unethical or unsafe extent. European CAAs have little interest in investigating the mandatory false self-employment and the effect it has on flight crew. Most governments don't care either until they realise they're being cheated out of tax revenue. Next time you are a passenger, if you found out that the Captain was asleep, the FO was medically unfit to fly, the cabin crew are on the point of breakdowns, and they're all there because they can't afford not to be, would putting it all down to market forces make it alright? You raise a very good example by mentioning nurses: I think their poverty-line existence contibutes to many of the avoidable fatalities and malpractice in NHS hospitals. Is that the model we want for professional pilots?
It's nice that you find my opinion touching and childlike; you're comments have a hint of the smug 'not like the good old days' attitude of my grandfather.
I think we all understand the market forces that cause this state of affairs.
FRFO, I beg to differ - it's lack of regulation which has caused this state of affairs (in fairness you do allude to this in the rest of your post).
Ask the dependants of those who perished in the Colgan accident in the USA whether this was/is an acceptable state of affairs.
Fingers should be pointed fairly and squarely at the IAA who are partners in the crime. Should ever an accident occur (and I sincerely hope it does not) they will all have blood on their hands.
A and C, market forces are ok when they are based on working ethics; it's when unethical forces take over that it all becomes barbaric exploitation of workforce for the sole purpose of economical profit of few tyrants. MOL and his mob are getting richer and richer while pilots,cabin crew and airport staff are becoming poorer and poorer; same goes for the competitors who, unable to compete with those who dodge competition rules, are falling victims of the unethical behavior of the greedy. Self destruction at its best. I'm disgusted to be part of this and I show it every time I go to work. Any passenger reading this please be aware I'm one of the captains carrying you and your families around on these ugly blue planes without reclinable seats and sardine-like seating style and I beg you not to fly with Ryanair for the sake of those ethics and values our grandfathers have fought and died for.
It has been said before, it will probably be said again......until RYR pilots get organised they are going to spend their lives with their trousers around their ankles and the little fecker's wire brush planted just where he wants it!
Just grow some balls, guys, the world of aviation is watching you get shafted as things stand!
Being in the sandpit for over a year now, I was given the opportunity to join Ryanair, not in the base I wanted, which would mean a repatriation for me, but with the promise to get it in the future, promise given by the Storm McG agent. And I declined. From what I make reading this thread, I would say that in the sandpit they respect more their most valuable assets: their pilots.
If you guys don't like the way you are treated by Ryanair then find another Airline to work for, that way you will have a much better life and if enough of you do it MOL will have to change the tems and conditions for the better. No one is forcing you to work for Ryanair.
I do have some sympathy with the line about the regulations not stopping the problems at Ryanair but most of Europe works under Subpart Q so there must be a lot of other operators out there who on occasions push things to the limits so it's not just a Ryanair problem.
So guys you have a choice you can find another job or go on strike.......the ball is in your court.
Professional pilots need to be treated with respect not because they are precious or special but because they are professionals. If a doctor or a lawyer got sacked that would be the end of them. And if we as pilots get into trouble with Ryanair, that is pretty much the end for us too. It's not like you can go down the local job agency and sign on their books. You'd have to go to freakin China! Ryanair are too big and there's nowhere to go. They are complete ass'oles and know this. The angst will eventually get to you. Like FRFO said earlier, they are treating you like casual labour. It's truely awful and disrespectful. I wish you all the best of luck in dealing with these disgusting bullies.
I have to ask if you guys have got so deep in debt while getting your training done that you now have two options........ Work for Ryanair or go bankrupt?
If so did you not see that once the Ryanair system had that hold on you they would take advantage ?
Sorry to be so blunt but it might help other wannabes who are about to part with large amounts of money thay don't have to see the truth about the likes of Ryanair and CTC.
The dream turns into a nightmare when you have to pay back the devil.
A and C, My previous employer went bankrupt and I took the FR job based on the lies they told me at the interview like about the basing policy or the legal aspects of contracts. I didn't have a different choice if I wanted to stay in Europe. During the years at FR I have seen other operators go bankrupt and at the same time witnessed my T&Cs going down year after year. Those airlines playing a fair game by the rules went down while FR, dodging every rule and exploiting legislative loopholes for their own corporate greed without any resect for their own workers, has grown to be a 300 aircraft evil monster which is leaving a trail of poverty, inhuman treatment, illegality and moral degradation.
Nowadays a european professional pilot must look at China or the middle east if he wants to be treated with a bit more respect and work in a more ethical environment.....a communist regime and an Islamist region, and that says it all. Thank you Ryanair for having brought the timeline back to the 18th century! They advertise new base openings with propaganda about creating new jobs but in fact they are destroying what has been built in decades of social battles exploiting a financial crisis to their own personal and corporate advantage but they feel no shame in asking airports and regional governments for financial help in every immoral form just to be able to state that it is just a contract between them and the airport ad not state help. In fact it is tax payers money spent for a private business that does not pay taxes nor social insurance in the various countries where they have PERMANENT establishments, and that money comes also from the airlines that went bust because of FR. Why don't we go on strike? Because of many reasons but mainly because there is no pan European law to protect the worker that should decide to do it and Ryanair has officially stated that they will terminate the contracts of those who should cause trouble and in my case I have kids to feed who would like to be raised and live in the continent where they come from since generations. Having said that I am ready to do anything to fight this cancer which is endangering my job, my family and my future since the level of frustration ,anger and stress is reaching peacks never seen before. Could this situation be endangering flight safety? I think it does but then again who cares.
Last edited by dannyalliga; 10th Aug 2012 at 09:28.
A&C, the RYR-guys don't pay tax until they've offset their TR so in that way it's not as bad as with many other companies where you have to pay everything with your already taxed cash. For a young single guy the money is really good if you get 700h+ but the contracts and hours seems to be worse for each year.
It's a nono according to our taxman but they know about it and can't do much due to loopholes.
You will get some empathy from me about loosing your job, I have THREE times in the last four years so I know what it is like however I did not and would not work for Ryanair. I don't like the way they do business and so I won't do business with them.
What I would defend Ryanair for is the right to run their business in the way they see fit, as passengers both my wife and myself won't travel Ryanair because of the way passengers ae treated and the fact that the cheap deal is unlikely to be as cheap as it seems when time comes to pay for the ticket.
The policy's of Ryanair have driven myself away as a passenger and the way Ryanair do business should drive you away as a providor of pilot services.
I find it very hard to understand why you make such a big deal about being employed by a company, the social protection that was offered following the bankruptcy of my last three employers was three tenths of sweet FA. I am far better off working as a contractor and using the tax system as a contractor, I have the freedom to choose my own pension plan and at the end of the year (with a little help from my accountant) pay my taxes in my country of residence.
There have been lots of jobs to be had over the past year or so with locations fron Turkey in the south to Norway in the north and a lot in between so why have you not gone for one of these rather than stay at Ryanair and be unhappy?
The bottom line is that NO ONE is owed a living be they road sweeper to rocket scientist so what makes you any different as a pilot?
The only thing I can say to you is go find another job but you may find that even working for Ryanair is not so bad, when I started in this business it was not unusual to spend 8 hours in a B707 fuel tank with a rivet gun and a windy drill, each time I think that flying is hard work I try to remember those times.
A&C - "Sorry to be so blunt", but I find your comments to be ignorant and a bit, well, infantile. When I started my training, jobs were available at the likes of BA, Easyjet, XL, BMI, Thomas Cook, Thomson, Flybe, BA Cityflyer, DHL etc etc. 18 months later, who was recruiting? Ryanair. So no, I didn't go there through choice. It was the situation I was in. However, like all the decisions I make, I do my best to live with the consequences and I still don't regret becoming a pilot. You haven't worked there - you clearly don't know much about what's going on there and what can only be described as a struggle to get union recognition. We're doing our best. If people in other airlines and particularly BALPA could do something to help instead of just bitching about us - maybe it would be a bit easier. After all it is (as you guys keep reminding us) going to affect your terms and conditions eventually, if it isn't already. You're right that everyone has a choice - but when you say "If you guys don't like the way you are treated by Ryanair then find another Airline to work for" is the sort of childish, moronic cr*p that is published by the Daily Mail whenever nurses threaten to go on strike and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the situation in Ryanair and its further ramifications. The fact remains that most of us would like to leave and are large number have, or are actively trying to. What you need to realise is that that does not solve the problem for everyone else in the industry (ie, you). People need to stay and fight to get this sorted out. Sadly the impetus to sort out the problems is entirely upon a divided, manipulated and downtrodden workforce who are under the threat of immediate sacking if they put their head anywhere near the parapet. So my advice to you is, if you've nothing useful to add, bore off.
A and C, in the country i live in it is illegal to be a self employed pilot with a 5 year contract that says you can work only for Ryanair, at the same time it is ilegal to set up LTDs that sign contracts with agencies which in turn sub-contract you to ryanair since it is called social dumping/ tax evasion ad social security scam; don't need your accountancy lessons since I have made my homework with my legal advisors.
Sooner or later I will find a solution to my misery but one thing is for sure: I will sue these scumbags no matter the time involved ( thankfully legal advice comes for free in my case ). In the meanwhile I fully support your decision not to fly Ryanair and urge anybody else to do the same, on my part I will do my best to deliver the very worst service I possibly can. Unprofessional? Cannot care less.
A wonderful Hissy fit from you, all your foot stamping won't get away fom the facts that there are other jobs to be found and that if you are sick of Ryanair you shoud just take your skills to another airline. Why get the high blood pressure over MOL ? Just find another job.
This situation reminds me go the last days of Debonair, we had one guy who would tell anyone ( at considerable length ) who was foolish enough to listen how bad the company was, how we were all getting screwed over the roster, money, pensions, and a whole host of other issues. When the airline went bust and I reluctantly got out the big red toolbox and went off to fix aircraft he was the first to tell me that I should ( in his words) fight for my job and the by going off and making a living as an engineer I was not showing commitment to being a pilot ( how sitting around on the dole shows commitment to being a pilot I am at a loss to understand) i found it very strange that a job that in his eyes was a day or so ago so bad was now worth fighting for!.
I suspect that the Ryanair management take the view that the bitching from the pilots shows that the situation is normal and that your words on this forum are reassurance to them that all is (from their standpoint )well with the world and that pilots are like toddlers.......under control while that are making a noise.
If you have the balls for it go fight the Ryanair management but I suspect they are not worth the shot & powder, go find another job your world will be better for it!
Dannyagilla.
I would be in the same situation as you when it comes to tax but I use Sole trader status, for this you have income from more than one sorce so you need to look for another little sorce of income, if Ryanair want you on a contract basis they have to let you have another sorce of income, the only limitation to this that they can apply is that there is no conflict of interest with their business ( IE you can't work for another airline).
Once you have another sorce of income the tax people cant touch your self employed status as they have no control over how you do business as long as you pay your taxes on all your income. Setting up as a LTD company is another way around this situation, if you have a wife who is not working it is a good idea but the company must get some income from a sorce other than the Ryanair agency.
I'm afraid that it is not just Ryanair and Aviation that uses these awful employment practices. Other "big" brands in the UK have cottoned on to these scumbag hiring practices that should be illegal, where they don't employ you, an agency does on a "zero hours unless we tell you otherwise" contract.
Honda in the UK are using these practices. I will not fly for MOL's bonus, and I will not ever ride in a Honda.
in my country you cannot have a 5 years contract renewed for another 5 years with the same company ( social dumping) , not being able to do your profession for anybody else makes you an employee of that company regardless if you re-invent yourself as an occasional plumber ( same as above), employing your wife into your LTD will just lower slightly your taxes but won't help family finances given the initial contract is crap apart from being illegal and additional LTD taxes and expenses will eat into it as well. My wife is much better off with her present job whith which we were able to get a mortgage for the house since my bank refused lending me money based on my illegal status. Maybe I should move to the country where you live in order to please Ryanair with their immoral practices but hey, I am not even willing to change flight level during a bumpy flight In order to make it more comfy for the pax let alone moving my family.
You say the contract is not legal , Ryanair would say it is...........until the contract is tested in a court of law it s legal.
So you now have three options, get another job, take Ryanair to court, or get the guys together and have a strike........... Oh I should stop looking down on the plumbers, they make more money than you!
Yes I know it was a cheap shot but along time ago I realized that airline flying was unlikely to be a very stable job so I started a to diversify my income stream as it is the only way to be sure that whims of the airline bosses don't spell financial disaster for you personally.
I would surest that you take a close look at the way your country's laws work as in most places the employment laws only apply to contracts with company's within the country and not to contracts with company's based outside the country. That is the loophole that most of these contracts exploit.
It looks to me as if the process for achieving union recognition is amazingly simple isn't it? And there's not a damned thing bullyboy O'Leary can do about it as long as more than 40% of you take part in a ballot and of those more than half vote in favour of union recognition. I just cannot see where the issue is. If you had a union you would have the power to threaten O'Leary collectively at no personal risk to yourself through a process of collective agreement. Your terms and conditions, treatment, respect and everything else would then improve dramatically.
I work for a rival, and I hate despicable examples of human beings like O'Leary because I cannot abide people who selfishly abuse and exploit those weaker than them. History is littered with examples of tyrants like him. The reality is though he will not overnight become a nice person unless he is forced to and it is in the hands of the collective Ryanair pilot community to force through change. This is no time to be Joseph Chamberlain, it's time to be Winston Churchill and show some backbone...
I would like to assure all Ryanair pilots that you will have my support, and the support of thousands of other pilots across the world's airlines.
We're professionals, highly trained and doing a demanding and serious job - we all deserve to be treated as such.
While I agree with your sentiments about Ryanair you history is rubbish.
Churchhill may have been first to be very public about the danger of Hitler but he had no power as he was a back bench MP.
Neville Chamberlian negotiated with Hitler first to avoid a repeat of WW1 that he had seen as first hand, then when the Munich crisis erupted he returned to London with the piece of paper that was said to garentee " peace in our time". Chamberlian was fully aware of the intentions of Hitler and was responsible for the biggest increase in defense spending that the UK has ever seen.
In 1938 the Battle of Britten would have been ME109 vs biplane fighters, it was Chamberlian's actions that gave the UK time to rearm with Spitfires & Hurricanes.
In short it was Chamberlian's forsight that provided the weponds for Churchill to fight with, Chamberlian was no fool and I would doubt that anyone who had seen the treanches of WW1 lacked backbone.
