Terms and EndearmentThe forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.
I understand why you might not need holiday or sick pay but I don't understand why you don't wantthem anyway.
Do you think you're doing O'Leery a favour?
Thanks for rephrasing. If they offered me sick and holiday pay, obviously I would take it, I don't need it therefore it doesn't bother me that I don't get it. I'm not greedy so I don't want it, so I'm not going to sit here and moan everyday about the fact that I don't get it, why would I get myself down about something that doesn't matter. Hope that answers your question.
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First of all: I have a job and it's not at FR. I'm lucky to work with much better T&C than RYR offers - of course they could be better, but unlike some people on PPRuNe, I'm being realistic. I bet if you paid a FO 10k per month, you could still find people who were complaining about every tiny detail that doesn't suit them.
FlyingStone, you have hit the nail on the head there. Give some of these people 10k a month, a house, a car, sick pay, holiday pay, I cant be bothered to go to work pay, give them food, drink and gold plated toilet paper. They would still moan! it's just how some people are.
Personally, from this forum I find pilots to be the biggest moaners I have ever met. Even at Emirates and BA (where I imagine its perfect) there will still be people that moan about everything, maybe the fact that their free meal is cold (doubt it will be since it'll have been in the oven for 10 hours).
Take a step back, do all you moaners really have a hard life? is what we call work, really work? is it bo**ocks. Walking through the minefields in Afghanistan is work, having 4 low paid jobs working 16 hrs a day to feed your family is work. Flying is not what it was 40 years ago and never will be, lets stop living in the past and embrace the future. And no.. like most of you, I've never experienced work.
Last edited by FingerFlyer; 5th Aug 2012 at 20:29.
Finger, it is because of people like you that the pilot profession is going down the tubes. In a few years down the road when you don't like this job any more don't blame others for what you and people like you did to this profession.
Why is 700-800 hours a year good? Try half that for similar money.
5/4 roster sounds good on paper but what happens when you finish your working week at a base that isn't your own and start your next week at another? More like 7/2 then isn't it.
Thanks for rephrasing. If they offered me sick and holiday pay, obviously I would take it, I don't need it therefore it doesn't bother me that I don't get it. I'm not greedy so I don't want it, so I'm not going to sit here and moan everyday about the fact that I don't get it, why would I get myself down about something that doesn't matter. Hope that answers your question.
But, whether or not you need it is irrelevant. The fact is that it is supposed to be your right.
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Originally Posted by FingerFlyer
I have friends at Jet2 and BA, who's gross is less than my net take home. FlyBe I was just going by the figures on their website. They do have more job security though.
Factoring in all the benefits that they get that you do not, are you sure? All the expenses you suffer must stack up. TR, sims, accountant, uniform, ID cards... you know the expenses better than me.
You are an incredibly cheap worker for Ryanair. The airlines you mention there make pension contributions, give sick pay, pay for sims, provide insurance and many more other benefits that you don't get. They spend a lot more per pilot than Ryanair. And that's what's making this career unviable going forward.
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Originally Posted by FingerFlyer
Flying is not what it was 40 years ago and never will be, lets stop living in the past and embrace the future.
There is a huge difference between being realistic and being taken for a ride. What Ryanair offer is pathetic compared to what they could afford to give. Check out the profits.
It's sad (and frankly wrong) that you think that fair employment is a thing of the past.
The roster is the best thing about Ryanair. And you end att your base and next week you start flying out of the same base.
But it's often stable, pretty much a normal job but you get 4 days off instead of 2 which is normal in my country. To be honest, i enjoy flying for Ryanair but it could easily be much better if top management wanted it to, even without any extra big costs for them.
Until you get an e-mail from your master (a.k.a BRK) saying your roster pattern will be moved back two days for "operational reasons in accordance with your contract"
If they offered me sick and holiday pay, obviously I would take it, I don't need it therefore it doesn't bother me that I don't get
What planet are you living on? It might not bother you right at this moment because you are not currently sick, but what happens if you become ill? It has been known to happen unexpectedly. I've seen a blocked ear turn into 5 months off work.
How will someone who has a family or is still in debt from their training/type rating costs afford to survive these 5 months without sick pay? You might be alright Jack, but don't try and paint this utterly unsustainable practice as a desirable form of employment in this profession. It is destroying piloting as a viable career path.
There are many industries that choose to recruit through agencies and employ people on a self employed basis these days. The IT industry has been doing this for years, the same in construction and engineering etc. If you don't want to work that way then don't apply, simples!
I personally would like to work for them once im qualified, it seems like the best job out there for newly qualified pilots. I have worked on a self employed basis for years in my current job and I actually enjoy it.
Regarding holidays, you save money from your salary and pay for them, regarding sickness you have insurance. You will generally earn more as a contractor to pay for these things.
Regarding food accounting services, these are all tax deductable so you are not taxed on them as you are with you salary. If you have a decent accountant and spend the time to research it then you should be better off than somebody earning the equivalent salary as an employee, especially once you get into the higher earning bracket.
There are lots of contract pilots out there flying for many airlines around the world. Its not just Ryanair.
I do think with PPRuNe you need to be careful who you take opinions from as everybody has a different background and different requirements. There are people on here that have been lucky enough to fly for large airlines during the boom times for aviation, these days are gone and they aint coming back. There are also people straight from flight school who have never had a real job to compare it to. This isn't the only industry in decline.
Sorry, that should have said 'food and accounting services'. Basically anything you are paying out for in the course of doing your job can and should be claimed as expenses.
FingerFlyer is not a line pilot like you and I. I even believe he is not a pilot. His wording, examples, belittling spelling of REPA, is exactly how O'Leary, Wilson, O'Brien & Conway would write memos to pilots.
Troll is too polite for FingerFlyer. Ignore his management speak.
Basically anything you are paying out for in the course of doing your job can and should be claimed as expenses
Not quite right. Anything you pay out which is wholly and exclusively required in order to perform your duties is theoretically an allowable expense.
For example, it's long been Irish law that you can't claim for the lunch you take to work, whether you make yourself a sandwich at home or buy it from the Airport shop. It's the Irish Revenue's opinion that you would be eating food whether at work or not, hence it's not related to your employment. Different if you're working out of base, then you get subsistence allowance.
Having said all that, there are loads of people claiming for all sorts of stuff. It's illegal, but hey, most people know they're unlikely to get caught.
Personally, I only claim for stuff I know is allowable because knowing my luck I'm the one they'll audit...
Your opinion on working for Ryanair will be coloured largely by your personal circumstances. Those who sleep in their own bed every night will be a lot happier than those who have to live out of suitcase and commute across Europe on their days off between some post-Soviet sh-thole and their soon to be ex-wife and kids.
Many of the complaints you hear come from those with false expectations of the industry and who as 19-year-old 2-stripers expected to treated like Cathay Captains in years gone by. These sorts of complaints can largely be written off. However, there are many very valid complaints that often don't even occur to the new guys until they're a few years into the job, grown up a little bit and are thinking more long term about the career.
I'll try to be balanced:
Good points:
Pretty much the only chance for many to get straight into an airline. Great aircraft and flying. Modern, reliable, glass cockpit, big(ish) jet, diverse route network. Flying side of the company great: 99% great guys and girls. Diverse heritage and background of crews - keeps it interesting. Engineering and standardisation very good. Excellent take home money for young FOs - beats unemployment by a long shot (which is why people go for it but unwittingly contribute to declining terms and conditions). Rapid hours and experience build up. Good prospects for command (but that may change). Proven stepping stone to big-name airlines. Job security, in that RYR isn't going to go bust anytime soon. In fact it'll probably be the last man standing. Some of the hosties have very good CRM skills. Good roster if you have 5/4. You can plan in advance a long way ahead, and there's a lot you can do with 4 days off in a row. Very good and fair training department.
Bad points: No collective representation of the workforce - you are at the mercy of a boss who doesn't much like pilots and has publicly stated that they are a balance sheet liability that he seeks to minimize. Virtual inability to achieve union representation because without employment rights, few contractors are willing to stick their heads above the parapet and fight for recognition. No employment status. The mandatory self-employed contractor status is legally very questionable in almost every country in Europe. You are a de-facto employee. There is likely to be some uncomfortable fallout over this in the future. Tax - following on from the above, there is a nagging feeling that the current situation will be judged illegal in due course (already has in France, Italy, more to follow). When it comes to crunch time who do you think will feel the pain: taxman, Ryanair or you. Money - seems great for a 21YO JFO, but when you consider the take home and the value of benefits that you are NOT getting the earnings are not that good. Exchange rate is crippling non-Eurozone pilot's incomes. What happens when the Euro implodes? Pilots not benefitting from company's success. RYR makes record profits, pilots see real-terms pay cuts, actual pay cuts, declining T&Cs, increasing workload, liability, responsiblity. Latest contract liability term is a shocker and is being enforced. Nobody should sign that unless they can afford good lawyers. Some cabin crew bordering on incompetent - most are very good though. Crew control attitude. Aggressive, inflexible, and sometimes underhand putting you in potential compromising positions with regard to flight time limitations etc. Do they ever return a favour? Do they ****.
'Atmosphere' stinks. Often threatening / bullying from above. Very unprofessional messages being published by management on internal website. Virtual harassment of those who need to take a sick day. Virtually impossible to get days off, leave when you need it. Deliberately obstructive basing policy. How can the significant majority not be at a one of their chosen bases? Often crap facilities and little support for crews. No pension - most young guys won't even think about this but it will bite them on the arse in the future. Small bases can be low hours / low income and repetitive routes. Being forced to deal with cabal of spiv accountants in Ireland and agency who do approximately F-all for a cut of my wages. The reaction you get when somebody asks you what you do for a living and you tell them. Oh yes, no coffee and no hat.
A few indicators: Spent the night on a crewroom sofa? Yes Spent time in a fleapit living on pot-noodles, petrol station baguettes and cup-a-soup. Yes Walked 5 miles through foreign suburbs in the middle of the night because there is no crew transport, crew hotels, no buses and no taxis? Yes Observed people flying when fatigued, hungry, dehydrated, ill? Yes. Built up hours/experience at maximum possible rate? Yes Concerned about the future? Yes See FR as a career airline? Probably no.
Those questions that the IR use to determine self employed/employed status are a bit of a joke and are not set in stone. In my current job I couldn't answer yes to many of them due to the nature of my work and the need for security clearances etc. Its the same for most self employed people.
IR35 was brought in really to stop people leaving a permanent job on the friday and starting back on the monday as a Ltd company claiming expenses etc.
To get in Ryanair you need to be self employed, therefore you are compliant as there is no other way in. Thats my opinion anyway.
I don't understand the attitude that being self employed is somehow a bad thing. In most industries the higher paid employees are trying to be self employed due to the tax benefits.
On another note, if you knew that Ryanair was where you wanted to end up then you should be setting yourself up with a Ltd company during training and getting as much paid aviation work as you can (Flying work post CPL only of course). That way when you go to Ryanair and they ask you for your ฃ30,000 or whatever it is now, you can put it through as a company expense.*
*I am not an accountant and these are just my opinions based on working as a contractor for 12 years.
(doubt it will be since it'll have been in the oven for 10 hours).
