Much drivel being spouted here. If crew control needed to call you an hour before an early standy began to give you a heads up, then your standby duty should have been rostered to start earlier, but it didn't, so tough. You're either on standby or you're not and my phone will be off until my standby begins. I have once had them call me as soon as I switched it on to say 'we need you at the airport in 20 minutes, we've been trying to call you for the last 2 hours'. Well guess what, I wasn't on standby two hours ago, but I'll get there as soon as I can and within the one hour contracted standby report time.
Can I just say that the above post is probably the most straight forward in the last three pages, and I agree with it entirely. If a company wants to call you at 4:15am instead of 5:00am (to give you a heads up??), then simply roster the standby from that time, simple. Then we can all plan our rest/sleep accordingly, knowing that it wont be disturbed, whether it actually infringes on minimum rest time or not.
I do agree with having two phones (as its the easiest solution), but its sad that this is the length that we have to go to in order to avoid our companies breaking the rules that are set out for us in our OM-A's.
Yet another exaggeration regarding Ryanair: if your Standby starts at 05:00 then you should be ready to walk out of the door at that time
X-Centric; My original reply to your post back on page one, was merely to highlight that your response about someone exaggerating about RyanAir, was in fact an exaggeration in itself
For info- there is a very important difference between being issued with a memo to say that being called in a rest or off period does not effect the following duty, and it being in an Ops manual (or FCI in RYR's case, where by the next revision of the OMA will include this new flight crew instruction) which has been approved by the National authority!
I learnt at a very early stage in my career that (s)crew control rarely call with any good news. I have a few personal rules:-
- I don't work on a day off
- I don't answer my phone when I am off duty and/or not required to do so
- I don't call up (s)crew control looking for favours. If I really need a day off then I try to swap with mates or else I change my plans.
- I work my roster (its always legal and compliant with working conditions) no matter how bad it is, I don't shovel sh*te onto someone else.
- I let all calls from (s)crew control go to voice and be screened. That gives me the benefit of being in a better position to deal with them as I can catch my breath.
All of the above comes about as in my short 6 years with a national airline I only ever had 2 special days that I really needed off and no matter what I offered to do I got fobbed off with hopefully/call us closer/we will see what we can do. Needless to say I didn't get the days I needed. From that I learned that:-
- All airlines are full of "company men" who are more than happy to stitch up their own and work on days off to fulfill their own agendas.
- Most airlines refuse to carry sufficient levels of crew as there is always an abundance of people that will take a call on a day off and come in to "save the day".
On an early reserve duty my phone is always off. I set the alarm on the phone to come on a few minutes before the duty starts and when I wake I then turn on the phone. They can call me at whatever mad time in the morning they want to but all they will get is my answerphone. They generally get the idea after a while and call at the start of the duty. I then have an hour to get into the airport. It usually only takes me 30 minutes from getting the call to hitting the shower and getting into work.
My life is very simple now and funnily enough (s)crew control stopped calling me on days off about 4 years ago when I adopted the above methods of dealing with them.
As I did say, the traditional way of interpreting the regulations (and if I may say, the most logical) is to use the length of the preceding duty to determine how much a break you need, and to tack that on to the end of that duty. Any further rest before the next duty is a 'bonus'.
your interpretation of the rules is incorrect. you 'Tack" it onto the beginning of the next duty period not at the end of the last duty period.
The point is to rest before the Flight not to rest after a long flight. the regulator doesn't give a sh@t if you are rested after a flight.
listen to fireflybob cause he knows what he is talking about and read his reply once again especially the words in italics.
A couple of years ago, when I still had the misfortune to work for Ryanair, I was called about an hour before an 0500 standby twice within a week.
On the first occasion I just assumed that the call had been at the correct time and had already showered and dressed before I realised that the company was yet again taking the p*ss. When I phoned crewing back to ask why she had called me and had disturbed my rest, she pretended that she had made a mistake. I was not happy but, as I was now awake and not in breach of FTLs, went in anyway.
On the second occasion a few days later, again about an hour before the start of my standby, I advised crewing that they had disturbed my rest, I would be turning my phone off and would call them back later. When I woke up at about 8, my wife told me that crewing had phoned back on the landline asking for me and asking who I thought I was to be telling the company when I would be available. She asked crewing who the hell they thought they were for calling my household at 4 in the morning when I was not on duty.
When I checked in with crewing, her initial gambit was to try and get aggressive. When I challenged her about disturbed rest and FTL's etc, she immediately became defensive and admitted that they would 'chance their arm' with calls before official standby because most pilots would come in early.
I was not called again before any standbys.
The trouble with ignoring such practices, as MH152 is happy to do, is that it only serves to further validate the abuse of terms and conditions. Being called at 0400 is not the company doing you favour by giving you a heads-up. It is the company trying to see if you are compliant enough to ignore legislation and help them out of a problem created by their inability to adequately cover the schedule. Slippery slope.
Remind me to tell you the one about refusing to go into discretion....
I can't believe what i've just read above, and that people accept this behaviour and actually fall for it!
Waking up at 4am in case you're called at 5am? Are you mad?
What happens when you get called at the end of the standby for a long ass duty? That is not responsible or safe in any way, and you should be ashamed of doing such!
Our passengers are paying for us to fly them from A - B safely, and expect us to be well rested and professional.. if something bad happens and they look into the fact you accepted disturbed rest... do you really think it's going to look back for the company or for you? The Buffalo accident springs to mind about who the negative light was put on for fatigue.
If crewing want me, they can find me in bed, as I plan on being well rested before they send me on a rescue mission around Europe. (Plus the mrs. would be pissed if her "heater" disappeared to go and prance around the pad in uniform)
Sorry for the harsh words, but seriously.. wake up to what is going on! Even if crew control call you before you sby starts, whats the problem with just hitting the mute button?? Stop risking safety, they're not going to appreciate it or pay you more for it!
Last edited by i_like_tea; 22nd Jul 2012 at 14:19.
Mr Angry, I have no idea what you are getting at but just to be clear when I am rostered to "manage" (as you put it in your post) I do so to the best of my ability. When I am not rostered then I switch my attention to those that matter around me.
If my company chooses to employ to few pilots then it is their problem with how they get the necessary bums on seats and not mine.
All the above should be viewed in the context of a company that is making stonking profits and managers taking eye watering bonuses.
I don't mind being contacted on days off because I get paid extra for working on them. Did four a couple of months ago and smiled when I saw my payslip.
Generally we would not be called during a rest period, an SMS would be sent instead. One arrived recently while I was asleep advising me of a change to my roster involving a one hour later sign on. It saved me from sitting around at the airport.
My phone goes on silent while I'm in my legal minimum rest as I can't be called in early. When I wake up I check my messages and turn it back to normal volume.
Location: In some hotel downroute or in some hotel doing union negotiations.
First of all he cant change my duty (delay when the duty started doesn't count) by more than 2 hours a day, so 6 hours isn't legal to begin with. Secondly i wouldn't take any call from my employer on my day off or any other day outside of those times where i have to take them.
Location: In some hotel downroute or in some hotel doing union negotiations.
Well, not in CAP 371 of course, it is part of our CLAs. However as far as i know there is absolutely no rule either in CAP 371 nor in EU-OPS that you have to take calls from the company anytime you are not on call out duty. Therefore i wouldn't take it anyway and just turn up on time for my planned duty.
But alot depends on the working laws that are applicable to you and your employer, company culture (do they misuse SIM checks to fire pilots?) and so on.