EZY Cadet Contracts
The drawbridge was raised against all but 'scheme cadets' four years ago. I note that many of those 'cadets' are now busily engrossed in the books as their various Command Assesment hoops hove into view. Good on them, they have thousands of hours on type and good training records. In those years and hundreds of thousands of sectors there has been one tailscrape at Lisbon.
I see no compelling reason why the company will consider lowering the drawbridge. Unless there is one hell of an immediate order for Airbus Neo's which Airbus knock up in record time then there will be no Experience Gap requiring DEC's.
They have built their model, it seems to work, they are taking it more in-house and I think we'd all better get used to it. I don't advocate it and I lament it but I find calm in accepting the world as it is rather than how I think it ought to be.
The real issue, the real dark topic is the Colgan angle. When you're new, on temp contract, paid by the hour, young, away from family - the pressure to show up for work regardless of your fit state is great. This is undesirable.
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I see no compelling reason why the company will consider lowering the drawbridge. Unless there is one hell of an immediate order for Airbus Neo's which Airbus knock up in record time then there will be no Experience Gap requiring DEC's.
They have built their model, it seems to work, they are taking it more in-house and I think we'd all better get used to it. I don't advocate it and I lament it but I find calm in accepting the world as it is rather than how I think it ought to be.
The real issue, the real dark topic is the Colgan angle. When you're new, on temp contract, paid by the hour, young, away from family - the pressure to show up for work regardless of your fit state is great. This is undesirable.
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I’m not condoning the P2F schemes far from it I disagree with them and think all airlines should encourage a good mix of pilots from different backgrounds, but what I am annoyed at is the Incompetent cadet bashing….okay some are good some not so good, just like anywhere (why is it our counterparts often tell horror stories of dangerous Turbo prop captains in their previous airlines who won’t ever move onto anything bigger…does this make all turbo prop guys dangerous?? But the point I want to make is let’s say perception has us believe BA pilots ‘are the best’ why aren’t we bashing BA guys since BA used to pump out ‘cadets’ like a factory and put them straight onto a jet with 200hrs!! Forget about P2F, were cadet bashing here so let’s start a BA cadets and ex cadets who are captains can’t land/are a liability thread. I’m not saying the cadet route is the best, nor TP, nor military…it’s just a different route. P2F sucks not necessary the guys ability.
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Captain Spam Can - I totally agree. I too feel fundamentally ill-at-ease at this constant cadet bashing. The real issue is that easyJet has taken too many and not had a balanced recruiting policy.
Lord Spandex Masher - I am actually an admirer of your other contributions elsewhere. Most people on here are either semi-literate, ill-informed or lack the power of written expression to present a coherent argument. You are in none of those categories and have a genuine insight into the airline industry. I am far from being in disagreement with you over the keeping out of experienced pilots at the expense of employing cadets. As I said earlier, it is the scale of them where the problem lies.
angelorange - it is absolutely not true to say that easyJet has not taken experienced pilots for 4 years. We have taken a significant number of A320-rated pilots over that period - I was training some only last week. What we have not taken is ex-military or turbine pilots. Like you, I believe that has been an error.
babotika - I presume from your comments you work for BA. You say, 'definitely not the minimum-training-and-it'll-be-fine-attitude in orange land.' To say that is a misrepresentation of the situation at easyJet is an understatement. Such crass comments reveal a woeful ignorance of the situation here, and whilst I believe we have made errors in limiting our input of experienced pilots I would challenge the view that somehow BA cadets are better quality or better-trained than ours. I am a product of the BA training system at Cranebank myself and greatly admired it. There is nothing I have seen, however, that tells me CTC are producing a less comprehensive training regime. Your observations that around half of BA pilots come straight from a cadet scheme of some kind would probably be very similar to the overall picture at easyJet. Others may have more accurate figures to dispute that, but it is undoubtedly true that a significant percentage of our pilots have come from a wide variety of backgrounds and not just direct entry cadets.
Lord Spandex Masher - I am actually an admirer of your other contributions elsewhere. Most people on here are either semi-literate, ill-informed or lack the power of written expression to present a coherent argument. You are in none of those categories and have a genuine insight into the airline industry. I am far from being in disagreement with you over the keeping out of experienced pilots at the expense of employing cadets. As I said earlier, it is the scale of them where the problem lies.
angelorange - it is absolutely not true to say that easyJet has not taken experienced pilots for 4 years. We have taken a significant number of A320-rated pilots over that period - I was training some only last week. What we have not taken is ex-military or turbine pilots. Like you, I believe that has been an error.
babotika - I presume from your comments you work for BA. You say, 'definitely not the minimum-training-and-it'll-be-fine-attitude in orange land.' To say that is a misrepresentation of the situation at easyJet is an understatement. Such crass comments reveal a woeful ignorance of the situation here, and whilst I believe we have made errors in limiting our input of experienced pilots I would challenge the view that somehow BA cadets are better quality or better-trained than ours. I am a product of the BA training system at Cranebank myself and greatly admired it. There is nothing I have seen, however, that tells me CTC are producing a less comprehensive training regime. Your observations that around half of BA pilots come straight from a cadet scheme of some kind would probably be very similar to the overall picture at easyJet. Others may have more accurate figures to dispute that, but it is undoubtedly true that a significant percentage of our pilots have come from a wide variety of backgrounds and not just direct entry cadets.
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Sorry ADM I'm not BA, I joined ej by choice with time on type. My observations are based on my perception of the training from my numerous safety duties and speaking to other crew - captains and FOs - compared to other places I've worked.
Although I'm sure the vast majority of individual trainers put in 110% to support the trainees, the system as a whole has a decidedly mass-production approach which leads to people doing things because they were told to, without knowing why they do it. Why else do we have these new be-safe (and dumb) calls creeping in?
There's also a very real pressure on cadets to clear in only 44 sectors or potentially face the chop - with a 100k+ loan. It's all well and good to be told you'll get as much training as you need but 1) it doesn't always happen and 2) it still will feel like a personal failure to go over quota.
Although I'm sure the vast majority of individual trainers put in 110% to support the trainees, the system as a whole has a decidedly mass-production approach which leads to people doing things because they were told to, without knowing why they do it. Why else do we have these new be-safe (and dumb) calls creeping in?
There's also a very real pressure on cadets to clear in only 44 sectors or potentially face the chop - with a 100k+ loan. It's all well and good to be told you'll get as much training as you need but 1) it doesn't always happen and 2) it still will feel like a personal failure to go over quota.
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Just posted on R&N. May change things a bit if it crosses the pond.
WASHINGTON– The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) today proposed to substantially raise the qualification requirements for first officers who fly for U.S. passenger and cargo airlines.
Consistent with a mandate in the Airline Safety and Federal Aviation Administration Extension Act of 2010, the proposed rule would require first officers – also known as co-pilots – to hold an Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) certificate, requiring 1,500 hours of pilot flight time. Currently, first officers are required to have only a commercial pilot certificate, which requires 250 hours of flight time. The proposal also would require first officers to have an aircraft type rating, which involves additional training and testing specific to the airplanes they fly.
“Safety in all modes of transportation is our number-one priority,” said Secretary LaHood. “This proposed rule reflects our commitment to the safety of the traveling public by making sure our pilots are the most qualified and best trained in the world.”
“Our pilots need to have the right training and the right qualifications so they can be prepared to handle any situation they encounter in the cockpit,” said FAA Acting Administrator Michael Huerta. “I believe this proposed rule will ensure our nation’s pilots have the necessary skills and experience.”
Other highlights of the proposed rule include:
A requirement for a pilot to have a minimum of 1,000 flight hours as a pilot in air carrier operations that require an ATP prior to serving as a captain for a U.S. airline.
Enhanced training requirements for an ATP certificate, including 50 hours of multi-engine flight experience and completion of a new FAA-approved training program.
An allowance for pilots with fewer than 1,500 hours of flight time, but who have an aviation degree or military pilot experience, to obtain a “restricted privileges” ATP certificate. These pilots could serve only as a first officer, not as a captain. Former military pilots with 750 hours of flight time would be able to apply for an ATP certificate with restricted privileges. Graduates of a four-year baccalaureate aviation degree program would be able to obtain an ATP with 1,000 hours of flight time, only if they also obtained a commercial pilot certificate and instrument rating from a pilot school affiliated with the university or college.
The proposal addresses recommendations from an Aviation Rulemaking Committee, the National Transportation Safety Board, and the FAA’s Call to Action to improve airline safety.
The proposed rule can be viewed at: Public Inspection Documents The public may comment on the proposal for 60 days after publication on February 29.
WASHINGTON– The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) today proposed to substantially raise the qualification requirements for first officers who fly for U.S. passenger and cargo airlines.
Consistent with a mandate in the Airline Safety and Federal Aviation Administration Extension Act of 2010, the proposed rule would require first officers – also known as co-pilots – to hold an Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) certificate, requiring 1,500 hours of pilot flight time. Currently, first officers are required to have only a commercial pilot certificate, which requires 250 hours of flight time. The proposal also would require first officers to have an aircraft type rating, which involves additional training and testing specific to the airplanes they fly.
“Safety in all modes of transportation is our number-one priority,” said Secretary LaHood. “This proposed rule reflects our commitment to the safety of the traveling public by making sure our pilots are the most qualified and best trained in the world.”
“Our pilots need to have the right training and the right qualifications so they can be prepared to handle any situation they encounter in the cockpit,” said FAA Acting Administrator Michael Huerta. “I believe this proposed rule will ensure our nation’s pilots have the necessary skills and experience.”
Other highlights of the proposed rule include:
A requirement for a pilot to have a minimum of 1,000 flight hours as a pilot in air carrier operations that require an ATP prior to serving as a captain for a U.S. airline.
Enhanced training requirements for an ATP certificate, including 50 hours of multi-engine flight experience and completion of a new FAA-approved training program.
An allowance for pilots with fewer than 1,500 hours of flight time, but who have an aviation degree or military pilot experience, to obtain a “restricted privileges” ATP certificate. These pilots could serve only as a first officer, not as a captain. Former military pilots with 750 hours of flight time would be able to apply for an ATP certificate with restricted privileges. Graduates of a four-year baccalaureate aviation degree program would be able to obtain an ATP with 1,000 hours of flight time, only if they also obtained a commercial pilot certificate and instrument rating from a pilot school affiliated with the university or college.
The proposal addresses recommendations from an Aviation Rulemaking Committee, the National Transportation Safety Board, and the FAA’s Call to Action to improve airline safety.
The proposed rule can be viewed at: Public Inspection Documents The public may comment on the proposal for 60 days after publication on February 29.
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Capt SC:
You need to compare like with like. Have a look at the history of cadet training with Hamble/BA and contrast it with those who fork out £120k and are royally messed about by a LoCo.
In addition most BA cadets went on to ATP or L1011 (3 crew) senarios before working their way forward. On the very last fully sponsored intake this was the case and one friend of mine managed to get onto Long Haul but as a crusie pilot first. Most other cadet schemes like Britannia used Biz jets to improve handling skills and give cadets confidence. This is not the case at EZY. I know some that were effectively laid off after 6 months and told they weren't allowed to apply for Aer Lingus. It was back to the bar job till further notice.
BA never exclusively use cadets in Pilot recruitment and closed their fully sponsored scheme many years ago. The new iteration is slightly better than EZYs but still requires £84k upfront.
WWW:
"there has been one tailscrape at Lisbon."
On an A319? Thank God it wasn't anything worse. How much did the repair cost?
Cadets could have a great future and should be part of the system but not to the exclusion of all other pilots and not in the way EZY and other LoCos have abused them
You need to compare like with like. Have a look at the history of cadet training with Hamble/BA and contrast it with those who fork out £120k and are royally messed about by a LoCo.
In addition most BA cadets went on to ATP or L1011 (3 crew) senarios before working their way forward. On the very last fully sponsored intake this was the case and one friend of mine managed to get onto Long Haul but as a crusie pilot first. Most other cadet schemes like Britannia used Biz jets to improve handling skills and give cadets confidence. This is not the case at EZY. I know some that were effectively laid off after 6 months and told they weren't allowed to apply for Aer Lingus. It was back to the bar job till further notice.
BA never exclusively use cadets in Pilot recruitment and closed their fully sponsored scheme many years ago. The new iteration is slightly better than EZYs but still requires £84k upfront.
WWW:
"there has been one tailscrape at Lisbon."
On an A319? Thank God it wasn't anything worse. How much did the repair cost?
Cadets could have a great future and should be part of the system but not to the exclusion of all other pilots and not in the way EZY and other LoCos have abused them
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FARO 2004.
Not EZY, but same source of cadets: FARO 2004.
http://www.gpiaa.gov.pt/tempfiles/20...65521moptc.pdf
287h total with 68h on airbus - Line Training flight.
Longer fuselage A321 model
Like CHIRP, this hints at more hands on flying training required before going into a large jet.
Just the approved cadet course with DA42 and SIM time does not seem to be enough to handle landing a JAR25 aeroplane.
http://www.gpiaa.gov.pt/tempfiles/20...65521moptc.pdf
287h total with 68h on airbus - Line Training flight.
Longer fuselage A321 model
Like CHIRP, this hints at more hands on flying training required before going into a large jet.
Just the approved cadet course with DA42 and SIM time does not seem to be enough to handle landing a JAR25 aeroplane.
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I get the feeling that a part of the reason that cadets get a bashing is that the selection procedure that these guys go through to get their ticket is ultimately down to cash and not ability.
Yes there has to be the ability to pass the minimum standards for theory and the various flight tests along the way, but with money and time these can be passed at the 75% score level or equivalent. Even where 95% is pushed for the writtens, the difference between theory and practical is massive and there are no grades for flying assessments, only pass-partial-fail.
There will be good guys and not so good guys in the end, but since the initial screen is far more about money than it is skill, you're bound to end up with an overall lower average / modal level of skill. This doesn't do any favours for the reputation of anyone in the cadet stream.
Yes there has to be the ability to pass the minimum standards for theory and the various flight tests along the way, but with money and time these can be passed at the 75% score level or equivalent. Even where 95% is pushed for the writtens, the difference between theory and practical is massive and there are no grades for flying assessments, only pass-partial-fail.
There will be good guys and not so good guys in the end, but since the initial screen is far more about money than it is skill, you're bound to end up with an overall lower average / modal level of skill. This doesn't do any favours for the reputation of anyone in the cadet stream.
