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EZY Cadet Contracts

Old 3rd Feb 2012, 02:44
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I agree with skaterboi...It only a matter of time until these job will pay nothing or worse still the 1st officer pay the airline to sit in the RHS.

Jets are boaring in my opinion, real flying is in a light aircraft with 18 KTS cross wind and landing on the centre line.
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Old 3rd Feb 2012, 09:02
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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'Back in the day' TP guys spent 3 or 4 years max on decent cash, more than 35k once in the LHs, having fun and learning how to fly. I love the way this is dismissed out of turn as an unnecessary inconvenience. they had a debt of 35k max. They never paid for a TR through their career and were paid full salary from day one at every company. This was only 6 or 7 years ago. What do you think your easyjet CTC job has cost then in real money. I dread to think. a very quick estimate is £150k more than the TP guy in the first 5 years. When he/she would then be joining ezy on full SFO salary.
It is still possible to do the above, but move on to someone other than EZY. I for one did that, 3 Type ratings, all paid for by the company, the max time i was bonded for? 4 years. Each bind cancelled the next out and the third was free! Now enjoying a tax free salary else where. Its funny, because so many wannabes ive spoken to dismissed my route saying they could not possibly survive on the wages a TP operator paid. Well all my collegues are still alive and didnt resort to selling organs to pay off debts. I was sat on the X carpark bus a LGW (coz i love it sooo much) and happened to get chatting to one of ( as it turned out to my amazement the few) flexiscrews that could afford a car. Having compared route with route to the green atpl issue, wages, costs and all, he sat there gobsmacked. It was sooooo hard not to laugh in his face. He had a look of one of those candid camera shows where some unsuspecting mug got taken to the cleaners. All because they believed they had done their homework, knew the warts n all, and could look forward to the dream salary after doing their time, shaging their way through the base whilst working on it.
Oh what poor judgement some folk show.
I used to go to that professional pilot training show back in 2003/4 just before i started training. Flexiscrew didnt exist then, the sponsorship style ctc entry with ezy and tcx did. They had a fair bit of interest i seem to remember. I would love to see what the ctc stand looks like today. Im sure its full of salivating 18 year olds, drooling at the sight of an A320. Not even realising the potential learning and development that is found on TP operators post mpl/cpl ir courses. And to top it off you leave ATHR and AP in the whole frikin time! For fear the QAR and FDM police might go tut tut. Talk about skill errosion......."oh its ok we do 'back to basics trg' every time in the sim and it is part of the ATQP". Spare me please.

Out of interest a new ba FPP got in contact who had previosly applied for my old operator, but failed, now successful on CTC course. Having number crunched they worked out they would be on slightly less than i was when i started on a TP, let alone todays starting salary(which is higher) Post deductions etc. And they are paying a proprtion of the TR, and only get BnB rather than allowances. Blimey, the things people will do just to fly jets straight away(ok they are better off in the long run agreed). Funny thing is......it doesnt get u laid. Unless they are dumb, girls in bars dont believe you until the grey in your hair starts coming through.
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Old 3rd Feb 2012, 09:17
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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Oh sorry, forgot......initial investment. £62'000. I could afford property these days with the difference between a course, plus TR. I understand it is circa £80'000 for an integrated, or you could go modular, do it in quick time, if well planned and join a large TP operator when others leave to go elsewhere. 60 grand ish for modular today??? And no paying of type rating. Enjoy bond on full time perm contract. Or pay 150k become contractor, but fly big computer than makes your nob grow......well in your mind at least. Oh balls, no work next month, best become a prostitute to pay my way through the difficult spot.
Damn its only really fat old bird that'll have me. Ok waiter......damn i get sworn at and treated like crap the whole time......trolley collector at tescos......oh but its all soooooooo worth it.

Enjoy it Hezza. And suicide is still considered a crime FYI. I hear the fast way bus passes into crawley are going up as well, best factor it in. And no i dont think you will really commit, or are likely too, any form of suicide.....but i bet that tick box on the class 1 renewal form will look tempting at some point, in a faux comical sort of way.

And i'm using Hezza as a generic term for all unsuspecticting wannabies, nothing too personal implied. The chap on the XYZ carpark bus at LGW was evidently a pprune nut just like the rest of us. Well researched indeed.

Last edited by BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES; 3rd Feb 2012 at 09:20. Reason: Legal arse covering before TCAS give RA
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Old 3rd Feb 2012, 23:03
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And the best thing about TP flying is the hands on flying ability you develop.
And where your flying abilities will be after a few years flying only the bus on AP
most of the time. Remeber AF 447.
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Old 9th Feb 2012, 11:08
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Topic makes it into CHIRP FEEDBACK

What do people make of this CHIRP FEEDBACK (Issue 101, 1/2012) response?




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Old 10th Feb 2012, 16:28
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Devil

Hezza: "I'm signed up to start on the CTC Wings Cadet scheme later this year"

Did you pay a deposit? Can you get it back and spend the money on fun flying around the globe? How about some bush flying, glider towing, instructing (Jerez want lots of FIs), TPs?

"but there really is nothing else" !

Really? how hard have you looked? How many pilots have you bought a beer for down the local flying club?

"cheaper route - but that leads no where fast"

Ah yes fast - like fast jet? Or fast loss of cash?

Patience dear chap! It will take you further than you think!

" but CTC are bloody good at getting you work flying jet aircraft at really quite good hourly rates"

Really? Maybe you should talk to 3 of their A320 pilots (CTC ones I know personally, there are likely more + I know of 2 other A320 unemployed pilots fm other uk schemes) who are presently unemployed and with under the golden 500h on type to go elsewhere.

Give modular a chance - it might save your bacon.
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Old 10th Feb 2012, 16:45
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Exclamation Well spotted Superpilot

Link: http://www.chirp.co.uk/Downloads/ATFB/ATFB101.pdf

"The Air Transport
Advisory Board concluded that it is relevant to highlight
the concerns expressed by some experienced line and
training captains regarding experience levels,
competence and fitness to undertake a duty."

Well done ATAB!

-----------------------
"I find the present bunch of junior First Officers very keen
and motivated but sadly woefully undertrained. They
have been taught to master the Flight Management
System but not taught the basics of flying or landing the
aeroplane."

Minimal Flying experience and lack of confidence is down to poor training and lack of practice in manual flying.

-----------------------------

"banning junior First Officers from reduced flap landings
or tailwind landings.
Coupled with a new bunch of inexperienced Captains,
the company finds itself on a bit of a tightrope where
safety is concerned"

So what happens if the Captain cops it and these FOs have to cope with dodgy wx, foreign ATC and perhaps another system issue?

-----------------------------

"When I ask these FOs why they don't go fatigued there
are several reasons, including the fact that they feel if
they go fatigued when they come up for an interview
with the company for a permanent position, this will be
held against them along with any sick days they have
had. Also, some FOs are only paid by the hours which
they fly and, as they are already in so much debt, they
choose to fly."

Very similar to Colgan

Pilots in Buffalo Crash Were Set Up for Fatigue, Officials Say at Hearing - NYTimes.com

"First Officer Shaw's commute and low pay, Colgan's pilot hiring and training practices, and pilot fatigue. A transcript of the cockpit voice record is released; it notes sounds similar to yawns from both pilots and frequent sniffles from First Officer Shaw. "If I call in sick now," she says, "I've got to put myself in a hotel until I feel better." She also talks about having made $15,800 in her first year at Colgan"

--------------------------------

"The CAA expects airlines to be able to demonstrate an
understanding of the type of flying that it operates and be
able to demonstrate how they manage their specific
operational risks (one of which could be the use of cadet
pilots). This would be an organisational responsibility that
the CAA would expect to see demonstrated."

Come on Airlines - how do you manage this additional risk?

Maybe learn from the past?

Britannia used to send cadets to macAlpines to fly HS125 before B737s

1980s BA cadets on L1011 Tristars had a FE in the rear to add CRM

TCX/My Travel used to send cadets to get Upset recovery training in aerobatic aeroplanes and then off to Flybe on Q400 to fly TPs for a while.
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Old 13th Feb 2012, 12:00
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angelorange - I have not the slightest doubt you are a highly professional aviator with many years of valid experience in easyJet. I do not believe, however, your advice is correct to Hezza. We all lament the passing of the numerous previous ways into commercial jet aviation such as HM Forces, turboprops, night freight, single-pilot piston-twin taxi flying, instructing etc. The fact is, nonetheless, that those routes are generally gone. Like it or not, CTC is the main way into easyJet. The advice you are giving to Hezza, however well-intended, is fundamentally incorrect. All very interesting as it is to know how airlines did it in the past - it is just that, the past. None of these routes exist now and to tell someone to try them is to send them on a certain route to professional failure. As you well know, there are literally hundreds of ex-CTC cadets who are now at BA flying shiny long-haul jets or still at easyJet as flexicrew First Officers, Senior First Officers, Captains and Training Captains. The route provided into aviation by CTC has been incredibly successful in terms of getting the cadets from being 200-hour newbies to senior commercial pilots with a variety of companies. Whether it was the best route is debatable, but the fact remains that it is now one of the few routes in at all. In these discussions, I always think what I would advise my son - I would have to tell him to go to CTC if he wanted the most certain route into flying an Airbus. I am only too aware of the limitations of the CTC system, but it is, alas, increasingly the only game in town.
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Old 13th Feb 2012, 12:45
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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Oooooph

AdM,

Hope you've got a spare £120 k then.
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Old 13th Feb 2012, 13:23
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Where is this 120k non-sense coming from?

To go from zero to flexicrew through CTC costs 93k including living expenses plus TR.

120k is just hyperbole.
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Old 13th Feb 2012, 14:29
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I'm curious what all of you pro flexi/p2f/CTC/happy to be on a crappy salary for years with massive debts just so you can fly a shiny jet etc. think of this:

In X number of years time when you have paid off your loan or got some hours under your belt and want to move on to bigger better things what will you suggest/do when the bigger better thing wants to charge you thousands of pounds, give you a contract on a salary just so you can have the privilege of flying for them?

Answer A:
Pay up, I wanna fly bigger shiny things (or even similar shiny things) and I'm happy to put up with the crap Ts&Cs and crap salary for a few years because I plan on moving on when I've paid off my debts and got a few hours under my belt.

Answer B:
Don't pay/Can't pay, stay where you are which may or may not be on a proper contract maybe, or maybe not, earning decent money, flying the now not so shiny things.

How many jobs or type ratings are you willing to pay for?
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Old 13th Feb 2012, 14:45
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Nabanoba.

I think you'll find 93k plus the cost of a type rating is 120k. Give or take. Personally I suspect it would be more for a lot of people as this is based on min hours etc.

120k. I should employ their marketing people. Take training which can be found elsewhere for 60-70k, put a few pics of shiny jets on your website and charge 60 grand more! I have a new found admiration for CTC.
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Old 13th Feb 2012, 15:52
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NABANOBA:

Tut Tut, silly old me.

"ONLY" £92,000 for a non-job. With, or without type rating is still a ridiculous sum of money.

The world has gone mad - and I think AdM has too. I never thought I'd read him advocating wholesale the CTC system, even if it is under the guise of "it is the only way now........"
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Old 13th Feb 2012, 16:07
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Spandex

No paying for type ratings at Flybe?

What is the pay like though?

Prospects after Flybe? (apart form the lucky few coming to BA and one or two at Qatar)

What is the roster like?
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Old 13th Feb 2012, 16:29
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No I am good thanks.
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Old 13th Feb 2012, 16:42
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No paying for type ratings at Flybe?
No.

What is the pay like though?
Better than this:
£2,710.00 £910.00
£2,626.00 £826.00
£2,116.06 £316.06
£2,864.50 £1,064.50
£2,947.27 £1,147.27
£2,422.66 £622.66
£3,071.71 £1,271.71
£2,063.57 £263.57
£2,471.77 £671.77
Every month.

Prospects after Flybe? (apart form the lucky few coming to BA and one or two at Qatar)
Emirates, Etihad, Jet2, Monarch, Thompson, to name the ones I can think of instantly and not limited to the Embraer guys either.

What is the roster like?
Depends which fleet. The last few months I was there 40-50 hours average.

Still, that doesn't answer my question does it?!
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Old 13th Feb 2012, 16:54
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NABANOBA:

Tut Tut, silly old me.

"ONLY" £92,000 for a non-job. With, or without type rating is still a ridiculous sum of money.

The world has gone mad - and I think AdM has too. I never thought I'd read him advocating wholesale the CTC system, even if it is under the guise of "it is the only way now........"
But that is because Alexander De Meerkat is absolutely right. Like it or not, the industry has been evolving this way for quite some time now. The recession has served to mask the reality, and provided a rock for the disbelievers to hide behind.

This route (and a couple of similar ones) has increasingly been seen as the "cadet" route into an airline pilot apprenticeship by many of the major players. In this case the rules of the game were, broadly speaking: You pay a £69,000 "bond" and another £10,000 for a foundation course. You budget for living costs (food and transport) for 16 months (pick your own figure I would average around £10,000) That commits around the £90,000 mark. On successful completion of the course, the cadet was offered a placement with a partner airline for 6 months, during which time around £8000 of the "bond was returned as a subsistance allowance, which the cadet used in conjunction with normal flight allowances to cover this training period. At the conclusion of the 6 months, the cadet would be well on their way to having 500 hours under their belt, and subject to the airlines requirements might reasonably expect to be offered an employment contract on cadet terms for a year or two, then dovetailing into a normal contract thereafter. The remaining bond was transferred to the partner airline who usually repaid it in monthly sums for the next 5 years. The type rating was paid by the placement (partner) airline.


This route provided a solid base into an airline apprenticeship, and for the succesfull applicants worked well. This same scheme is in many respects the same format as that recently adopted By British airways for their FPP cadet programme. It is also the format still used (in conjunction with CTC) by a couple of other companies still recruiting cadets.

The reality of the marketplace over the last 5 years or so, has meant that EZY has (with minor exceptions) been pretty much the only game in town. As a customer in a de facto monopoly position, it has been able to negotiate its own terms. Obviously these are favourable to the airline and significantly less favourable to the prospective cadet in financial terms. The type rating is now an added expense, and the placement terms are significantly weaker. However as a strong customer dictating terms to an ever weakening market, what were the options?

This winter has seen some growth in placement opportunities for some of these cadets, and there has been a limited ressurgence in the more classic terms for some graduates. I am aware of twenty graduates who are having their type ratings paid for by the placement airline. For these graduates the £90K figure I mentioned earlier is ballpark correct.

Expansion in cadet (entry level) programmes is increasingly going to follow this model. The schools themselves have spent the last few years investing in the infrastructure, and the airlines are going to tailor their cadet programmes around that infrastructure.

ADM says that he would advise his son to follow this route as the best "most certain" route into flying an airbus. Accepting that there is nothing "certain" about it, I would definetaly have to agree. That is the advice I would give to my son or daughter as well.
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Old 13th Feb 2012, 17:02
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Spandex

Emirates and Etihad no go for Dash 8 guys. Qatar second officer if you dont have jet time. Monarch have not recruited non type guys for a while only DE and CTC? Thompson have not recuited for a long time either as far as I know.

So if you want to leave for better pay and a better roster options are limited until you have hours on the Embraer. Would that be fair?
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Old 13th Feb 2012, 17:11
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Beazlebub,

Great advice. Get in huge debt, for absolutely NO guarantee at all of a permanent job.

My advice would be: Fly for fun, get a real career elsewhere.

Not perhaps what the young Meerkat or Beazlebub Cubs want to hear, but more sane.

People bandy about figures of £90,000 like they are insignificant. They aren't. They are MASSIVE financial millstones that will take ages to discharge. All that while, mortgages etc will remain unattainable, therefore home ownership and the wealth benefits that brings long term are more elusive.

£90,000. Just say it a few times to yourself. You'll either come to your senses or come to accept it. Unfortunately, too many do the latter IMHO.
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Old 13th Feb 2012, 17:22
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Fairish. I know Jet2 are taking TP only guys, at least one as a DEC, as are BA. Dragonair will take you with TP command time.

But you still won't pay for any TR at Flybe.

None of this is relevant to my question however,

How many jobs or type ratings are you willing to pay for?
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