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EZY Cadet Contracts

Old 1st Feb 2012, 21:29
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Because luckily there are unions. For how long is anyones guess. Airlines are also slow to respond, even locos.
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Old 2nd Feb 2012, 07:33
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Robert G Mugabe
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HP Bleed the real reason is market forces. Those who have a reasonable amount of experience are paid the market rate. The unions especially BALPA are just a means of collective negotiation. If Union demands get unrealistic (ie in certain European countries) companies will just end up out-sourcing or limiting their exposure to the unions influences.

Cadets are not a valued resource. They however have sold themselves short by agreeing to their price by accepting the contracts.
 
Old 2nd Feb 2012, 07:55
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Well, no Robert, if it was market forces cadets would already be getting paid minimum wage. That was the point.
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Old 2nd Feb 2012, 09:09
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Robert G Mugabe
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You may think £1000 expendable income is a lot - it's not. My car needs repairs, 3 times last year -£600, £400 and £600 again inc MOT. Can't afford a new one so those repairs will run into next year. I find the months I get £600 expendable just enough to live and save a little bit in case of emergency - such as the car repairs. The months I get £300 or £200 I have to use that spare I've saved to live off.

Do not think this is easy - it may look a lot on paper but it soon disappears. I spend 2 or 3 hours a week looking through my excel spreadsheet of direct debits to see how I can reduce them - there's not movement on anything now so I'm stuck - and I've mananged to get my expenditures as low as possible
HP I think you will find that you and the other cadets/flexicrew are pretty much living in minimum wage territory until you pay off your loans. Paying off the loan in about 8 years or so and paying £17000 in interest at 4%. Long time to be near or at minimum wage. Have fun in your twenties. Situation eased slightly if you get a permanent contract. Last in first out when we stop recruiting or hit the financial rocks , and your loan follows you.

If the unions had been more proactive in nipping P2F and the cadet schemes off in the bud you would not be in the financial position you are in now. Easyjet used to employ new joiners and bond for 3 years until the type rating had been " payed for " . All you chaps have done is pay a service provider a huge amount of money to pay easyJets training costs. Well done you

Then again if BALPA had been more proactive you would be below the experienced Turboprop guys/self improvers and ex military people in the feeding chain.

You make your bed...

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Old 2nd Feb 2012, 09:45
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Hang on one second.

Let me make it perfectly clear that I have never signed up for P2F, nor did I originally sign up for crappy flexicrew. What I signed up for was an integrated flying course which we were sold a TR with and entry into the RHS of easyjet on a permanent contract. The fact that we were sold down the river to pay additionally for a TR and get paid by the hour is not purely my fault. Maybe if you had pushed BALPA from your comfy LHS and refused to fly with "cadets" the scheme would have been ousted at the first symptom.

You do not make your bed of goose feathers to end up laying on brick do you. Ridiculous assumption.

My interest will be about £10000 over 7 years at 2.75% above base - currently 3.25. But then I borrowed against my OWN name may I add and unsecured, a lower amount than the current funding required. It maybe minimum wage for a year or 2, but that is no different to a modular route, forking out £40-50k initially and ending up on £30-35k if you're lucky, for 10 maybe more years before getting a jet job.

I agree, the TP guys should be given greater oppurtunities, but again, that's hardly our fault. Would you have turned down the course 6 years ago? That's the state of the industry. They've costed themselves out of the market. Now, THEY'VE made their own bed, as have the military guys, they know that there may not be a jet job at the end of it. Why would I go through modular training to get into flybe on a dash when I can go straight onto jets?

Please don't compare what I singed up for, to what guys are currently paying out for. I've made it clear before that I wouldn't do it now.
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Old 2nd Feb 2012, 10:30
  #66 (permalink)  
Robert G Mugabe
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Let me make it perfectly clear that I have never signed up for P2F, nor did I originally sign up for crappy flexicrew. What I signed up for was an integrated flying course which we were sold a TR with and entry into the RHS of easyjet on a permanent contract. The fact that we were sold down the river to pay additionally for a TR and get paid by the hour is not purely my fault. Maybe if you had pushed BALPA from your comfy LHS and refused to fly with "cadets" the scheme would have been ousted at the first symptom.
Look HP lets not get riled young man.

The original contract you signed was not worth the paper it was written on if the terms and conditions were changed. You obviously did not read the small print.

Although in the left hand seat I have never pushed BALPA as I am not a member, never having seen the point in that organisation. A very expensive talking shop with no real relevance. They will not help you if you mess up at work because you messed up at work. As you are finding out they did not help you or those P2F/ flexibod/cadet types.

I see £10 a month you can save. Why dont you pay full membership fees anyway?

Additionally I hardly agree that it was the existing pilots fault you signed for a course of training in order to fulfil a childhood dream. Its never your fault....

I agree, the TP guys should be given greater oppurtunities, but again, that's hardly our fault. Would you have turned down the course 6 years ago? That's the state of the industry
Market forces..

Finally lets agree that the thread starter should not start now.He/she would be stupid to do so.

Some of you who allowed CTC and others to fleece you fall into the naive bracket.

I without doubt may be considered an a**hole but I am not stupid or naive and would not have signed up for the contract you did. My generation are more adverse to financial risk than you chaps. The benefit of old age,treachery and a different mindset.

Off to change the colostomy bag....
 
Old 2nd Feb 2012, 10:43
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Haha of course! You're the lot that started the borrowing frenzy in the first place. How could I forget. Do not generalise about generations, I did my research and the unsecured loan was against me, not my parents, I have no further debts other than a student loan for my degree which serves as a backup in case easyjet go bust (unlikely) or I need further work due medical or other reasons. "Your generation", the so wise and fiscal took out loans for cars, holiday homes and holidays and found themselves stung in the recession. Not quite so black and white I'm afraid.

I didn't say it wasn't my fault, in fact I stated it wasn't PURELY my fault. I of course am partly to blame for the situation I now find myself in, for being so naive in the first place.

I never mentioned I was in BALPA, however unlike you I feel they are of value, look at companies that have no union representation for example. Nice to see you are feeding your pay deals and terms and conditions off other peoples money. Would you perhaps prefer to be in Ryanair and have no say whatsoever on basings, pay deals and generals ts and cs.

Anyway, enough debate, I have another 4 sector slog to attend.
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Old 2nd Feb 2012, 17:10
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Angel £120k

£120k : That's on the low side for zero to hero wings pilot scheme and includes basic cost of living whilst under training.

If you include loan interest repayments at 8%.........

As said on a wannabee forum I know of 5 A320 rated pilots who are unemployed ranging from just base training to 500h on type. One of whom was top of a CTC Wings programme only to be failed o his line check for..... lack of condfidence! How can they expect huge confidence when the guy only had a few flying hours from the scheme? More likely politics involved.

Just be careful what you sign!

If you are patient and try to do a flying in small doses rather than an integrated bank debt scheme you will get there. All the best!

As for instructing being difficult - yes pay starts low but once you teach CPL/IR it's much better than Flexi deal and if you make the grade Contracted Military B1 QFIs are on mid forties basic pay.

Last edited by angelorange; 2nd Feb 2012 at 17:23.
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Old 2nd Feb 2012, 17:21
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Snoop BALPA let this happen

BALPA have looked after the Captains at EZY and the TRI/TRE's that work for CTC.

They have never helped cadets or experienced pilots who fell foul of CTC's schemes.

Why are you paying them £10 a month for this awful Flexi contract?

They even advertise SSTRs in The Log!

Good job some are seeing sense and leaving:

UK pilot union turf war - Learmount
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Old 2nd Feb 2012, 17:22
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Robert G Mugabe - probably best if you didn't play the old 'in my generation' card. Your generation has pretty much made the world bankrupt.

My generation are more adverse to financial risk than you chaps
riiigggghhhttt.
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Old 2nd Feb 2012, 18:37
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Robert G Mugabe - probably best if you didn't play the old 'in my generation' card. Your generation has pretty much made the world bankrupt
I think this must rate as one of the most crass comments I have seen recently. Financial incompetence and incontinence knows no generational boundaries. If you wish to lay the blame at a particular human group you need look no further than the political left on both sides of the pond. Former US president Clinton was instrumental in cajoling the US banks to offer the sub-prime mortgages which were a major catalyst to the first round of crises. Here, Gordon Brown looked the other way when our own banks were doing things they ought not to do and he spent tomorrow's tax takings yesterday, like a drunk on boat-race night. No, it's not generational. It's political.
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Old 2nd Feb 2012, 18:54
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Let's not forget greed is universal. From the inflated housing market in the USA and uk to the 2011 uk riots. The mid noughties attitude of I can get a cheap loan and won't have to repay it if I go bankrupt. And the desire to get everything now. Reminds me of how pilot training and 1st flying job aspirations have changed past 10 years with devastating results in personal debt terms.
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Old 2nd Feb 2012, 19:01
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Its amazing how the pilot community rounds on itself. Everyone blaming each other; pilots blame cadets for accepting crap contracts, cadets blaming unionised pilots for allowing it to happen.

The real "villain" here, quite simply, is deregulation.

Many years ago, aviation was state controlled, with inter-governmental agreements about who could operate what. It would almost certainly have fallen foul of modern anti-trust laws and equivalent. Anyone who remembers how the Bitish tax payer paid in excess of £1 Billion for a tent to commentate the millennium knows that when the state controls a project, all participants grow fat on the contracts.

Back in the 1970s at the height of state control a long haul skipper earned similar to a CEO of a FTSE100. Leaving aside the whole debate of modern boardroom pay, this was clearly an inflated amount.

But then the free market was let in, slowly, and by increment. Each loss of terms and conditions blamed on the incumbents for not "growing a pair". First it was the loss of the skipper's special suite down route then other more important things were attacked. Was the story of the abolition of the Captain's Cheeseboard at BA nearly provoking a strike a true story or a metaphor?

When the rot really set in pilots had to pay for an MCC, then a type rating, then line training, then crap part time/ self employed status.

Once the whole of Europe had deregulated and all the routes were open to free competition, why wouldn't the airlines choose to reduce their staff costs to obtain an advantage over a competitor?

And why wouldn't the prospective wannabe accept incrementally lower T&Cs than the previous generation. "Oh, its only an MCC, only £2000". Then "Well its a bitter pill to swallow, but if I pay an extra £20K for the type rating, I'll get the job that will see me earning £60K a year within a year or two". Then it came down to "If I don't pay for line training, someone else will, and he'll only spend 6 months at Easy, then get in to BA and live the dream". Were these decisions really illogical?

Many of the people who moan at the current generation for not choosing another profession like Law, Medicine or Accountancy almost certainly have never sat behind a desk and endured the boredom of sitting in an office for 8 hours a day (if you're unambitious enough to work 9 to 5).

The current system is terrible and I do not seek to defend it, but I don't think blaming the current generation for seeking what we have already achieved is the right way forward.
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Old 2nd Feb 2012, 19:10
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So if "cadets" refused these types of deals would they still exist? Of course not. It's the same as why they can charge you £25 for a red rose on Valentines Day, why? Because people are prepared to pay it, it is as simple as that.
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Old 2nd Feb 2012, 19:13
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So, I'm signed up to start on the CTC Wings Cadet scheme later this year and thought I'd add my thinking behind this decision into the discussion.

I'm in my mid-twenties, and am in the fortunate position of having about 75% of the capital (including living costs, TR contribution) having trained and worked since I was 17, and having run my own business for the last 3 years.

I'm a fairly long-time member of this forum, and seeing the wood for the trees (which, according to a previous poster, is something I should be awful at) is something I think I've become quite adept at. What I see is a less-than-perfect contract available to new trainees, but really nothing else.

I was originally going down the old fashioned, cheaper route - but that leads no where fast. Even on today's T&C's making the business case for going integrated is quite easy - I'm still working and earning right now, and if all goes to plan I'll be sat in the RHS of a jet-liner at the end of next year, earning a decent salary in perhaps 2.5years.

What will I do when I'm only working 20 hours in a November/December you ask? (...aghast at my stupidity)...

...Well, I'll earn money elsewhere of course, using my existing skill set.

I appreciate that I'm paying a lot of money for expensive training, but CTC are bloody good at getting you work flying jet aircraft at really quite good hourly rates. And, as even the likes of WWW have alluded to in the past - the job is still pretty darn' good.
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Old 2nd Feb 2012, 19:27
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Just a quick one boys and girls. I know how you all love the good ol "it's not my fault, there was no other choice" and the " your just another rich daddy's boy trashing our TandCs" debate. Truly entertaining stuff. But, has anyone found out for sure if the correct answer to wanting lube with your shafting is yes, or no? I mean surely in this epic utopian society both are correct? One can hardly discriminate these days. Or is it rather a case for the examination of the quality of parchment the cheque book is made from? Perplexing ambiguity i'm sure.......................ok so where were we? Are yes, i've just taken the aviation equivilant of the date rape drug and await my start date.......excellent, my favorite part..........do continue.............
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Old 2nd Feb 2012, 19:28
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Colgan anyone.....
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Old 2nd Feb 2012, 19:50
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It sounds like Hezza has it all under control. He or she knows how to get the best out of the hobby of commercial flying. One day it might be possible to get paid for flying.
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Old 2nd Feb 2012, 22:19
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Hezza dont do it.

The days of big LCC's expansion have gone. The Euro crisis has yet to run its course. The UK is a debt bomb waiting to go off. This is not the time to take on debt but time to pay off your debts if you have them.

In all likelihood having finished your course you will sit in a holding pool unemployed with a frozen ATPL.

If you are lucky and get onto the line how long will your services be required before the next starry eyed wannabe is willing to take your place.

In order to remain in work and maintain currency requirements you will be told to move from pillar to post by CTC and the like with very little time to discuss the ramifications of a move with your family. I can see people living a sort of gypsy existence. Hope your business is commutable.

If I had spare money I would buy a house near LGW and get cadets to pay for it.

That is the way to invest your saved money.

Last edited by Robert G Mugabe; 3rd Feb 2012 at 08:14.
 
Old 2nd Feb 2012, 23:27
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Everyone keeps saying "it's not my fault the deal changed".

Sadly it is, the contract if you could call it that is weighted so far in the favour of Crafty Thieving ( insert your own last word) that anything could happen. And for those just embarking on probably the worlds most expensive flying training should alarm bells not be ringing that it will most probably change again?

I wonder how low it could go? Personally I'd be willing to say that they could make these idiots work for free for three years and there would be lines of little sheep queuing up.

For those justifying it by saying they still get to fly a jet. You can justify anything if you try hard enough. But you are still being bent over and financially screwed just to sit in the RHS of a jet. Your job is worth a lot more than you are getting. And you will never see the terms and conditions at Easyjet you would have received had you all just said no.

I'm glad someone mentioned Colgan. There will be an incident, hopefully very minor, but there will be one caused by the complete lack of experience in the RHS and the extra workload it creates for guys who didn't sign up to be LTC's but sadly spend half their roster being one.

'Back in the day' TP guys spent 3 or 4 years max on decent cash, more than 35k once in the LHs, having fun and learning how to fly. I love the way this is dismissed out of turn as an unnecessary inconvenience. they had a debt of 35k max. They never paid for a TR through their career and were paid full salary from day one at every company. This was only 6 or 7 years ago. What do you think your easyjet CTC job has cost then in real money. I dread to think. a very quick estimate is £150k more than the TP guy in the first 5 years. When he/she would then be joining ezy on full SFO salary.

And yet I met a girl last week who is embarking on the CTC dream! On daddy's ticket too.

Our dictator friend is very correct too. With Europe on its way down the pan would you really want to be last in at an airline with a lot of exposure to France, Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece. Not to mention the UK? Couple that with a major shareholder, arguably the most prolific, determined to unseat the board and stop expansion.

Lube up folks!
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