Flybe Recruitment
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It's about Flybe recruiting. These people will be recruited to fly the Dash. It is important to give them correct information and not 'big up' the Dash.
It's not a jet*, it doesn't handle like a jet*, it hasn't got the performance of a jet*. It is an overpowered (when it's not full) turbo prop with similar performance to an ATR 72-600. You don't hear ATR pilots comparing their steed to a jet* do you?
Yes it's quirky, but so is everything else you'll ever fly. And yes a mishandled approach or engine failure will result in a bruised ego and a bruised 'plane whichever type you happen to be flying at the time - Jet* or turboprop, or glider, or Chipmunk, or 172, or Duchess, or hot air balloon.
And no, at the moment, I haven't got anything better to do. What would you suggest?
*Again, jet is a generic term, which one does it compare to?
It's not a jet*, it doesn't handle like a jet*, it hasn't got the performance of a jet*. It is an overpowered (when it's not full) turbo prop with similar performance to an ATR 72-600. You don't hear ATR pilots comparing their steed to a jet* do you?
Yes it's quirky, but so is everything else you'll ever fly. And yes a mishandled approach or engine failure will result in a bruised ego and a bruised 'plane whichever type you happen to be flying at the time - Jet* or turboprop, or glider, or Chipmunk, or 172, or Duchess, or hot air balloon.
And no, at the moment, I haven't got anything better to do. What would you suggest?
*Again, jet is a generic term, which one does it compare to?
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Wingowango, you must be an eternal optimist to think, or even suggest, that anyone being recruited onto the Dash now will be flying an Embraer "soon". More misinformation. Correct they won't give a f*** and the won't give a f*** if it climbs at 3000fpm or not?!
If you had bothered to read my posts you will see that I have already offered my opinion of the recruitment at Flybe.
Deano, the only nonsensical part of this thread is comparing a Dash to a 'jet'.
If you could suggest which 'jet' G sxty was alluding to we might be able to put this part of the conversation to bed.
And no, I still haven't got anything better to do.
If you had bothered to read my posts you will see that I have already offered my opinion of the recruitment at Flybe.
Deano, the only nonsensical part of this thread is comparing a Dash to a 'jet'.
If you could suggest which 'jet' G sxty was alluding to we might be able to put this part of the conversation to bed.
And no, I still haven't got anything better to do.
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SolentFlyer,
I would say the answer to your question is in the wording on the website.
Newly qualified pilots should have completed either an Integrated or Modular flying course at a recognised Flight Training Organisation (FTO). A minimum of 90% average at ground school stage of training is required. In addition to holding a valid UK CAA or JAR licence and medical on application First Officer candidates should also have completed a Multi Crew Co-operation course. Modular candidates should have completed training at a single FTO, not including basic PPL training or ATPL theory study and examination.
Your research done for you!
CC99
I would say the answer to your question is in the wording on the website.
Newly qualified pilots should have completed either an Integrated or Modular flying course at a recognised Flight Training Organisation (FTO). A minimum of 90% average at ground school stage of training is required. In addition to holding a valid UK CAA or JAR licence and medical on application First Officer candidates should also have completed a Multi Crew Co-operation course. Modular candidates should have completed training at a single FTO, not including basic PPL training or ATPL theory study and examination.
Your research done for you!
CC99
Last edited by choppercopper 99; 28th Oct 2010 at 12:27.
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Recruitment
I'm afraid I have no inside knowledge of future recruitment plans but I suspect with the market opening up and morale at a low ebb in Flybe at present due to the management attitude in recent pay negotiations it may not be too long until recruitment of F/O's becomes necessary.
Regarding the opportunity to rapidly progress to a jet then I'm afraid that the situation is unpredictable. The company line is that most of the 40 E175 firm orders will be deployed overseas and so will not improve the chances of current pilots moving to the jet. Others however suspect that the company's renewed enthusiasm for a single (turboprop level) payscale is due to their intention to replace Q400's with E175's on a one for one basis as leases come up on the former. Most people suspect that the truth will be in the middle somewhere.
For info F/O's who joined 3-4 years ago are just starting to get on the jet at less popular bases. For Captains you're probably looking at 10+ years for a jet command. Frankly you'll achieve a jet command quicker at BA than at Flybe as things stand!
Finally a word on performance. The Q400 doesn't offer jet performance by any means, but it is a huge step up in performance from a Seneca and posesses similar systems and avionics to a jet so that operating it is similar. Those who I respect and have flown both say the Q400 is more of a challenge than jets they've flown. This is due to:
It has some avionics quirks that can really trip you up
Its ice protection systems are totally manual
Its power levers are highly sensitive right where you don't want them to be and there is no autothrottle.
In an engine failure situation like all turboprops it has a whole extra set of levers to worry about/feather/do something useful with etc.
Couple that with the fact that it does have power by prop standards - we used to fly up to 270kts IAS down to around FL100 and we frequently climb out at 240kts. Perhaps the best analogy I can give is that if an Embraer 195 is an Audi R10, then a Dash 8 is a Caterham or TVR. The R10 is faster in a straight line but less of a challenge and arguably less rewarding for the aviator in you.
Desk-pilot
Regarding the opportunity to rapidly progress to a jet then I'm afraid that the situation is unpredictable. The company line is that most of the 40 E175 firm orders will be deployed overseas and so will not improve the chances of current pilots moving to the jet. Others however suspect that the company's renewed enthusiasm for a single (turboprop level) payscale is due to their intention to replace Q400's with E175's on a one for one basis as leases come up on the former. Most people suspect that the truth will be in the middle somewhere.
For info F/O's who joined 3-4 years ago are just starting to get on the jet at less popular bases. For Captains you're probably looking at 10+ years for a jet command. Frankly you'll achieve a jet command quicker at BA than at Flybe as things stand!
Finally a word on performance. The Q400 doesn't offer jet performance by any means, but it is a huge step up in performance from a Seneca and posesses similar systems and avionics to a jet so that operating it is similar. Those who I respect and have flown both say the Q400 is more of a challenge than jets they've flown. This is due to:
It has some avionics quirks that can really trip you up
Its ice protection systems are totally manual
Its power levers are highly sensitive right where you don't want them to be and there is no autothrottle.
In an engine failure situation like all turboprops it has a whole extra set of levers to worry about/feather/do something useful with etc.
Couple that with the fact that it does have power by prop standards - we used to fly up to 270kts IAS down to around FL100 and we frequently climb out at 240kts. Perhaps the best analogy I can give is that if an Embraer 195 is an Audi R10, then a Dash 8 is a Caterham or TVR. The R10 is faster in a straight line but less of a challenge and arguably less rewarding for the aviator in you.
Desk-pilot
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£53,500 + £1.90/hr TAFB
This should increase when the current pay negotiations come to a conclusion, a 6.1% rise is being sought, I would hope that the settled figure won't be too far off that.
If you put in 4%+ pension contribution, company will add 12%, though think this is after a year or two service, their contribution is lower initially.
This should increase when the current pay negotiations come to a conclusion, a 6.1% rise is being sought, I would hope that the settled figure won't be too far off that.
If you put in 4%+ pension contribution, company will add 12%, though think this is after a year or two service, their contribution is lower initially.
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"Dash 8 is a Caterham or TVR"
WHO ARE YOU KIDDING!!! I would liken it more to a shopping trolley! You know the one you always get with a wonkey wheel you cant steer straight!
But at the end of the day who gives a sh@t! Its a job it pays the bills(just) thats all the matters.
As for new hires, a constant stream of various types of cadets arrive from FTE or Oxford, as Flybe have invested money in these guys they get priority in the order of the hold pool. As the sooner they are been paid the sooner the company begings to re-coup its investment.
But once demand out strips the flow of cadets I would expect the hold pool to get shallow, and interviews will happen.
WHO ARE YOU KIDDING!!! I would liken it more to a shopping trolley! You know the one you always get with a wonkey wheel you cant steer straight!
But at the end of the day who gives a sh@t! Its a job it pays the bills(just) thats all the matters.
As for new hires, a constant stream of various types of cadets arrive from FTE or Oxford, as Flybe have invested money in these guys they get priority in the order of the hold pool. As the sooner they are been paid the sooner the company begings to re-coup its investment.
But once demand out strips the flow of cadets I would expect the hold pool to get shallow, and interviews will happen.
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Perhaps the best analogy I can give is that if an Embraer 195 is an Audi R10, then a Dash 8 is a Caterham or TVR. The R10 is faster in a straight line but less of a challenge and arguably less rewarding for the aviator in you.
It has some avionics quirks that can really trip you up
Its ice protection systems are totally manual
Its power levers are highly sensitive right where you don't want them to be and there is no autothrottle.
In an engine failure situation like all turboprops it has a whole extra set of levers to worry about/feather/do something useful with etc.
Its ice protection systems are totally manual
Its power levers are highly sensitive right where you don't want them to be and there is no autothrottle.
In an engine failure situation like all turboprops it has a whole extra set of levers to worry about/feather/do something useful with etc.
- Avionic quirks, every type will have these if you don't understand what you're putting in or why you're getting something out, a proper FMS has it's quirks and problems aswell.
- Manual ice protection, yes, you have to turn them on all on your own, but unlike some old turboprops your boots are split and cycle automatically as opposed to the full length boot which needs to be monitored and cycled manually, so not really totally manual are they? The 146 and the 737 have manual ice protection too, and they're jets.
- True, but you get used to it and autothrottle is sometimes as useful as not having it at all. Also a jet engine is less responsive when you need it to be more so, which would you rather have?
- What, two more levers are hard to cope with?! Levers which it doesn't need either, great idea that one! The C/L's also double as fuel cut off switches. So for an engine failure there are the same number of required actions as there are on the 195.
we used to fly up to 270kts IAS down to around FL100 and we frequently climb out at 240kts
I agree with everything else you've said though
Especially the TVR bit as they have a similar reliability history!
Last edited by Lord Spandex Masher; 29th Oct 2010 at 00:37.
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Spandex! You are a moron!!!!! I mean that in a loving way! The dash is a boll@x aeroplane designed by a 2 year old ergonomics student!! Where shall we put the switches? Well, we'll put one here cause it looks good and we'll put one here cause they will never find it and we will put one here that actually literally does nothing (those who fly it know what it is!!) and then we'll put a whole bunch of warning lights here cause they will never be able to work out what has gone wrong and we will make them come on in such a combination that they won't have any idea what to do and THEN we will give them an emergency checklist that regularly makes you do the wrong thing..... Awesome!
I flew a jet (beautiful machine to operate also with foibles but still great) and now I fly the dash. It is rubbish!! I love it too cause you really have to fly it (about the only thing that is similar to a piston) but seriously you sit in the ground school for it thinking.... Is this machine for real?! There was also a lot of... "but WHY does it do that! That's ridiculous! Who would design something like that!"! I assume you flew the dash before you flew a jet (when you knew no better). If it was the other way round you too would be saying it is (and I choose my words carefully) and "interesting" plane to fly! I can only assume you have forgotten!
I call you a loving moron cause you associate the dash to a twin 4-6 seat piston!! What are you on about?!?!?! That is ridiculous!! Funny too!! I mean there are 70 seats of inertia difference between them to start with ("if you can fly a Duchess or a Seneca you can fly a dash" mmmmmmnnnnnnaaaahhhhhh... cause the Duchess had loads of glass cockpit stuff!) and the real difference between them is you can reliably land a duchess well where as it is total pot luck on the dash!! I'm obviously very good but for the usual pilot its hard!!!
As has been said before, the dash is like an Austin Allegro built on a Friday afternoon. I prefer the TVR analogy thou! It's a hard aeroplane to fly because it makes no sense and it's more like a jet (and actually has two FADEC controlled jet engines) than a piston, mark my words!
I too have nothing better to do cause I'm always tech!
I flew a jet (beautiful machine to operate also with foibles but still great) and now I fly the dash. It is rubbish!! I love it too cause you really have to fly it (about the only thing that is similar to a piston) but seriously you sit in the ground school for it thinking.... Is this machine for real?! There was also a lot of... "but WHY does it do that! That's ridiculous! Who would design something like that!"! I assume you flew the dash before you flew a jet (when you knew no better). If it was the other way round you too would be saying it is (and I choose my words carefully) and "interesting" plane to fly! I can only assume you have forgotten!
I call you a loving moron cause you associate the dash to a twin 4-6 seat piston!! What are you on about?!?!?! That is ridiculous!! Funny too!! I mean there are 70 seats of inertia difference between them to start with ("if you can fly a Duchess or a Seneca you can fly a dash" mmmmmmnnnnnnaaaahhhhhh... cause the Duchess had loads of glass cockpit stuff!) and the real difference between them is you can reliably land a duchess well where as it is total pot luck on the dash!! I'm obviously very good but for the usual pilot its hard!!!
As has been said before, the dash is like an Austin Allegro built on a Friday afternoon. I prefer the TVR analogy thou! It's a hard aeroplane to fly because it makes no sense and it's more like a jet (and actually has two FADEC controlled jet engines) than a piston, mark my words!
I too have nothing better to do cause I'm always tech!
Last edited by bigjarv; 29th Oct 2010 at 02:58.
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Oh and for a serious response, Deskpilot is spot on!
For the sake of the thread I have no idea what is going on recruitment wise. I don't think anyone one does. I just wanted to call spandex a moron for being and argumentative jet jockey trying to prove..... what point exactly?!?!
For the sake of the thread I have no idea what is going on recruitment wise. I don't think anyone one does. I just wanted to call spandex a moron for being and argumentative jet jockey trying to prove..... what point exactly?!?!
Last edited by bigjarv; 29th Oct 2010 at 03:16.
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Im always bemused to witness individuals who by the very nature of their jobs should have pragmatism, logic and common sense in spades.
I mean really guys and gals what would Dr Freud say - think about it, as pilots were all borderline obsessed with size and propulsion. Its funny stuff when you get down to it.
Ive flown the dash and the way I describe it as a bit of a sod to hand-fly but very satisfying when operated well - because of the shear number of potential trip-ups built into it. When you do a 6 sector day (like we did out of Belfast in 07) in winter and walk away from the day ASR free you feel good about yourself.
I now fly the mini bus and imho its significantly less stressful environment to spend the day in:
No trimming
No aileron during efato
AP at 100 ft
Autoland in cat 3a conditions on one engine in a 20 crosswind
Alternate gear lowering takes about 5 seconds and can be done with a cup of tea in the other hand
You can fly HDG and VS or Track and Flight Path Vector - meaning on NPAs you can track perfectly with no lateral corrections and fly a perfect slope angle, again on one engine! - love it
Electronic checklist which self appears
Can quite literally be flown with two fingers from setting TO power
Seat reclines to an old style club class recline angle and you can put your feet up onto the foot rests
But all that said, give me a 6 month secondment back onto the headache with wings and Id bite your arm off - but not on Flybe wages, which are utter pooh. When I worked there I was on 29k - after loans, bills, food and uni payback crap I had about 120 quid a month for moi. Now I can actually make do on that - but throw into the equation the car not passing its MOT or the washing machine throwing a wobbly and life becomes tighter than a scotsman at a pay toilet. But hey you're an airline pilot right - major bragging rights to all the ladies in the bar, sadly not actually - youre brassic and a few rounds of drinks later and your 120 leftover moola is gone...
Anyway about flybe recruitment.........
CB
I mean really guys and gals what would Dr Freud say - think about it, as pilots were all borderline obsessed with size and propulsion. Its funny stuff when you get down to it.
Ive flown the dash and the way I describe it as a bit of a sod to hand-fly but very satisfying when operated well - because of the shear number of potential trip-ups built into it. When you do a 6 sector day (like we did out of Belfast in 07) in winter and walk away from the day ASR free you feel good about yourself.
I now fly the mini bus and imho its significantly less stressful environment to spend the day in:
No trimming
No aileron during efato
AP at 100 ft
Autoland in cat 3a conditions on one engine in a 20 crosswind
Alternate gear lowering takes about 5 seconds and can be done with a cup of tea in the other hand
You can fly HDG and VS or Track and Flight Path Vector - meaning on NPAs you can track perfectly with no lateral corrections and fly a perfect slope angle, again on one engine! - love it
Electronic checklist which self appears
Can quite literally be flown with two fingers from setting TO power
Seat reclines to an old style club class recline angle and you can put your feet up onto the foot rests
But all that said, give me a 6 month secondment back onto the headache with wings and Id bite your arm off - but not on Flybe wages, which are utter pooh. When I worked there I was on 29k - after loans, bills, food and uni payback crap I had about 120 quid a month for moi. Now I can actually make do on that - but throw into the equation the car not passing its MOT or the washing machine throwing a wobbly and life becomes tighter than a scotsman at a pay toilet. But hey you're an airline pilot right - major bragging rights to all the ladies in the bar, sadly not actually - youre brassic and a few rounds of drinks later and your 120 leftover moola is gone...
Anyway about flybe recruitment.........
CB
Last edited by Chief Brody; 29th Oct 2010 at 08:40.
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Anyway about flybe recruitment.........
Just before we get back on topic.............
I have never flown the Q400 (thankfully by the sounds of it) but how did it ever get certified if its that difficult and dangerous? Imagine if the press get hold of this thread!
Back to recruitment - only one way to find out - apply. I'm sure all applications will only be considered through the website.
Bigjarv, are you enjoying the cold crew meals? I do miss those days in SOU on the barbie jet. Remember your accent when you read the checklist!!!!!
Regards
eagle(blind in one)eye
I have never flown the Q400 (thankfully by the sounds of it) but how did it ever get certified if its that difficult and dangerous? Imagine if the press get hold of this thread!
Back to recruitment - only one way to find out - apply. I'm sure all applications will only be considered through the website.
Bigjarv, are you enjoying the cold crew meals? I do miss those days in SOU on the barbie jet. Remember your accent when you read the checklist!!!!!
Regards
eagle(blind in one)eye
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Hmmmm! Who could you be?!?!? And how do you know its me?! Intriguing!! Yeah the only reason the press cant touch us is cause we are all underpaid heros that fly it and save the day everyday! And we have the biggest props in the business!!!
You win chief!!!!
You win chief!!!!
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Ahhhhh! I have worked it out! Is that you hawkeye! I'm actually laughing about that now! My girlfriend thinks I'm mental just giggling here! Awesome! Yeah good times! How are ya?! Switching to PM!
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Cheers for the big bite big jarv!
Just some points:
No, the other way around in fact.
As there are between a Dash and a 'jet' but hey, lets not use the same yardstick!
What difference does that make? You can still, I hope, control an aircraft with reference to a 'real' or a glass AH can't you?!
Ah ha, the real crux of the matter. This is what I've been trying to get you Dash pilots to admit to for ages! So thanks. But a rough landing does not a bad aircraft make. Like I said it's to do with the design and not the ease with which you can fly it. I gave up trying to land it smoothly and just landed it properly instead!
Boring!
None, none at all, just killing time having a robust discussion!
Chief,
Not really flying then! More akin to being dragged around the sky by a robot.
Freud would say...umm...the devil makes work for idle hands
Yours,
L. Moron.
Just some points:
I assume you flew the dash before you flew a jet (when you knew no better)
you associate the dash to a twin 4-6 seat piston!! What are you on about?!?!?! That is ridiculous!! Funny too!! I mean there are 70 seats of inertia difference between them to start with
cause the Duchess had loads of glass cockpit stuff
the real difference between them is you can reliably land a duchess well where as it is total pot luck on the dash
Oh and for a serious response
trying to prove..... what point exactly?!?!
Chief,
No trimming
No aileron during efato
AP at 100 ft
Autoland in cat 3a conditions on one engine in a 20 crosswind
No aileron during efato
AP at 100 ft
Autoland in cat 3a conditions on one engine in a 20 crosswind
Im always bemused to witness individuals who by the very nature of their jobs should have pragmatism, logic and common sense in spades.
Yours,
L. Moron.
