List of "Pay-to-Fly" airlines
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: manchester
Age: 70
Posts: 452
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Posts 122 & 123 are perhaps a touch wide of the mark. The PTF guys are trainees with the likes of OAA & CTC so not contractors. The contractors are the BRK guys with RYR who are legally taxable entities in Ireland and this is recognised by a reciprocal agreement with HMRC. Sorry to disappoint.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ever heard of the saying..JUST SAY NO...then perhaps these companies would actually hire employees and treat you as such.....as the one post said....Tesco didn't charge him to learn how to use the cash register!!!
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: home and away
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've been reading this thread over the past few days, and found it very worrying that PTF schemes with 150/250 hours are being offered not just by ruthless "flight training" companies but these companies being run by airline captains! This is why PTF can't be stopped, at least in its current form! These individuals are within the airline, they charge the chap next to them to fly with them! A name has been made in the thread a few pages earlier, but I wouldn't be surprised if many more were involved. Upon some research, the same name seems to have been involved in a project that never took off, 747 Freighter venture in Greece. Ring any bells anyone?
It is disturbing that these people have the nerve to sit comfortably in their career chair whilst others who are attempting to start out are put in front of a choice like "pay us xxK and we'll give you xx hours on xxx a/c" and then after that, off you go, just as inexperienced, unmarketable to other airlines, with an empty wallet.
This is the problem, with the "supply" coming from within the very profession, this "cancer" will never be eradicated! Someone said elsewhere, "demand" needs to be cut, but I'm afraid there will ALWAYS be someone with heavily-loaded pockets, someone whose dad is a Donald Trump, someone who has "set aside enough" (on a different thread, a certain individual in his late 30s or so claimed to have saved enough to buy up to 1000 hours of line time if necessary! How do you stop that?!?). The chain must be broken on the supply side.
The pilot community must find the unity and cohesion (especially in the LCCs!!! But not just those carriers of course, see bmi in the UK..) necessary to tackle this problem from within, break the supply chain, attract suitable candidates to the profession with appropriate airline involvement and selection.
It is disturbing that these people have the nerve to sit comfortably in their career chair whilst others who are attempting to start out are put in front of a choice like "pay us xxK and we'll give you xx hours on xxx a/c" and then after that, off you go, just as inexperienced, unmarketable to other airlines, with an empty wallet.
This is the problem, with the "supply" coming from within the very profession, this "cancer" will never be eradicated! Someone said elsewhere, "demand" needs to be cut, but I'm afraid there will ALWAYS be someone with heavily-loaded pockets, someone whose dad is a Donald Trump, someone who has "set aside enough" (on a different thread, a certain individual in his late 30s or so claimed to have saved enough to buy up to 1000 hours of line time if necessary! How do you stop that?!?). The chain must be broken on the supply side.
The pilot community must find the unity and cohesion (especially in the LCCs!!! But not just those carriers of course, see bmi in the UK..) necessary to tackle this problem from within, break the supply chain, attract suitable candidates to the profession with appropriate airline involvement and selection.
Last edited by B-HVY; 16th Jan 2010 at 20:47. Reason: grammEr review!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Great answer B-HVY, you said something corrects . There will be always someone with a full wallet and since they are the owners, they have the right and they deserve to invest or use those money as they love to do.
Aviation has a quite high rate of unemployment hence many people don't have any other solution to open their wallets if they want to gain valuable experience. It is not fair, it is no the final solution and some of them they are finally realizing. Mr despegues does it sound to you ?
It's impossible therefore to have everybody with a same idea, I mean it's impossible to don't find someone who will say yes. If you think there are people going to a casino and loosing millions or bags full of pounds when in Africa there are poeple suffering starvation you may actually understand that pay to fly scheme are ... Let's say a bit irrilevant, greater dramas happen everyday on Earth surface. 
Aviation has a quite high rate of unemployment hence many people don't have any other solution to open their wallets if they want to gain valuable experience. It is not fair, it is no the final solution and some of them they are finally realizing. Mr despegues does it sound to you ?
ever heard of the saying..JUST SAY NO...then perhaps these companies would actually hire employees and treat you as such.....as the one post said....Tesco didn't charge him to learn how to use the cash register!!!
Last edited by Haran_Banjo; 17th Jan 2010 at 10:04.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: @ some hotel far away from everything
Posts: 734
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe one should point the rulemakers in the FAA direction, and see how they have done things with their part135 and part121 minimum of experience requirements? And how about those insurance companies? Are they aware that they are insuring companies which allow pilots with absolutely no flight experience outside of their flightschool be at he controls? 
And perhaps the ALPA should have roadtrips to these flightschools and have a sit-down with the students showing them what PTF and pay for a rating does with T&Cs? And, perhaps, even names should be named, as done in a previous pst here???
And perhaps the ALPA should have roadtrips to these flightschools and have a sit-down with the students showing them what PTF and pay for a rating does with T&Cs? And, perhaps, even names should be named, as done in a previous pst here???
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: HKG
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quite a few of the guys complaining here failed aptitude tests at the major airlines,and try-whatever it costs-to be pilots. Money should in many ways substitute skills/abilities..
Unfortunately professional airlines like LH,BA,KLM have to compete with this 'airlines'
Unfortunately professional airlines like LH,BA,KLM have to compete with this 'airlines'
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: no longer on the green rock
Age: 35
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Has anybody actually contacted any of these people?.. Ie. journalists, the Authorities, Insurance companies.. Its one thing bitching to one another on this forum.... we all know what is going on!
We are not the people who need to be reading about it. I sent an email to a certain journalist highlighting this and a couple of other threads including one on the buffalo accident, but just got an automated out of office reply.. Anybody else?....
We are not the people who need to be reading about it. I sent an email to a certain journalist highlighting this and a couple of other threads including one on the buffalo accident, but just got an automated out of office reply.. Anybody else?....
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Mare Nostrum
Age: 41
Posts: 1,427
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PFJ
Here in the states, Gulfstream Academy is the infamous pay for job, and their practices have come to light after the Colgan Air crash.
Pilot Complaints Highlight Hazards of Regional Airlines - BusinessWeek
"
Fatal Crash
Continental Flight 3407, operated by Colgan Air Inc., crashed in icy weather on Feb. 12, 2009, outside of Buffalo, New York, killing all 49 people on board and one person on the ground.
The plane's captain had been trained by Gulfstream, which also has an aviation school known as Gulfstream Academy. The pilot and his first officer may have erred in responding to a stall warning by pulling up the nose of the plane rather than pointing it down to increase speed, the National Transportation Safety Board found.
Gulfstream also trained the co-pilot on the last fatal commercial airline flight before the Continental crash. That involved a Delta commuter plane, operated by Comair Inc., which used the wrong runway in Lexington, Kentucky, in August 2006, killing 49 people.
Gulfstream also previously employed the two pilots who crashed a Pinnacle Airlines Inc. (PNCL) plane with no passengers after deciding to fly at their jet's maximum altitude to have fun, the NTSB found. They crashed and died in Jefferson City, Missouri, in October 2004. The first officer attended Gulfstream Academy, according to the NTSB. "
"We offer the fastest possible transition to the 'Right Seat' of a commercial airliner," Gulfstream says.
For $32,699, students get 522 hours of training—including 250 hours as a first officer for Gulfstream International Airlines. That means student pilots are paying Gulfstream for the privilege of flying as first officers.
"Gulfstream is selling the job," says Charlie Preusser, a regional airline pilot who flew for Manassas, Virginia-based Colgan Air. "When you've got a guy fronting the cash, there's a lot of pressure on the company to keep him onboard no matter how bad he is." "
It's 5 pages, but an interesting read.
Pilot Complaints Highlight Hazards of Regional Airlines - BusinessWeek
"
Fatal Crash
Continental Flight 3407, operated by Colgan Air Inc., crashed in icy weather on Feb. 12, 2009, outside of Buffalo, New York, killing all 49 people on board and one person on the ground.
The plane's captain had been trained by Gulfstream, which also has an aviation school known as Gulfstream Academy. The pilot and his first officer may have erred in responding to a stall warning by pulling up the nose of the plane rather than pointing it down to increase speed, the National Transportation Safety Board found.
Gulfstream also trained the co-pilot on the last fatal commercial airline flight before the Continental crash. That involved a Delta commuter plane, operated by Comair Inc., which used the wrong runway in Lexington, Kentucky, in August 2006, killing 49 people.
Gulfstream also previously employed the two pilots who crashed a Pinnacle Airlines Inc. (PNCL) plane with no passengers after deciding to fly at their jet's maximum altitude to have fun, the NTSB found. They crashed and died in Jefferson City, Missouri, in October 2004. The first officer attended Gulfstream Academy, according to the NTSB. "
"We offer the fastest possible transition to the 'Right Seat' of a commercial airliner," Gulfstream says.
For $32,699, students get 522 hours of training—including 250 hours as a first officer for Gulfstream International Airlines. That means student pilots are paying Gulfstream for the privilege of flying as first officers.
"Gulfstream is selling the job," says Charlie Preusser, a regional airline pilot who flew for Manassas, Virginia-based Colgan Air. "When you've got a guy fronting the cash, there's a lot of pressure on the company to keep him onboard no matter how bad he is." "
It's 5 pages, but an interesting read.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Germany
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It should be mandatory for all commercial training flights, that a second, fully qualified first officer with at least 1 year experience on type, is a member of the flight deck crew.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TheWanderer, Was that not the case in the Amsterdam 737 accident?
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Guildford
Age: 49
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think theWanderers suggestion is spot on. Not so much in that it would stop accidents occuring - if it all goes tits up in the last fifty feet for example, only the Captain or FO in the RHS is going to be able to even attempt to rectify. Accidents will always - unfortunately - happen regardless of the flight deck experience.
Why I think it's a great idea though, is that it removes the financial benefit to the company of having a PTF FO in the RHS...therefore starts to end this odious practice.
Not only that of course, but if something does happen to the Captain, the strain on the occupant of the RHS shouldn't be too big to bear.
Why I think it's a great idea though, is that it removes the financial benefit to the company of having a PTF FO in the RHS...therefore starts to end this odious practice.
Not only that of course, but if something does happen to the Captain, the strain on the occupant of the RHS shouldn't be too big to bear.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Central Europe
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Farnair
Farnair offers now as well Type Rating Courses ATR with Line Flying under Supervision.
Those who want to do Line Flying under Supervision (50 Sectors with a minimum of 65 hours) have to pass a screening/assessment (to be paid by the applicant) and if you pass the screening, the price for the type rating ATR42/72 and the 50 sectors comes to a grand total of approx. EUR 30'000.00
Those who want to do Line Flying under Supervision (50 Sectors with a minimum of 65 hours) have to pass a screening/assessment (to be paid by the applicant) and if you pass the screening, the price for the type rating ATR42/72 and the 50 sectors comes to a grand total of approx. EUR 30'000.00
Join Date: May 2009
Location: over there
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FlyBe?!
Flybe.com - Flybe Training - Pilot training
Am I reading this correctly? FlyBe offering TR and line training experience??
Am I reading this correctly? FlyBe offering TR and line training experience??
- Type Rating Course
- Aircraft Base Training
- Line Training
- Line Experience Flying
- Type Rating Instructor Course
- Doors and Exits
- Emergencies and Evacuation
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Mars
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
T&C
Well I think someone should develope a EUROPEAN wideTrade Union that includes all JAA-ATPL holders sowe have a common voice in parliament. Maybe than we would have a chance to end the lunancy in the industry.
