easyJet/CTC Cadet Pilot Slavery Contract
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I don't think a full ban on short term contracts is plausible... but something has to be done. Perhaps a rule stating that permanent contracts must be handed to meet the forecast needs of the company but where these forecasts fail to meet what is actually required then crew can be outsourced.
As has already been stated though, we can sit here and speculate possible changes that could happen and moan about the raw deal that this industry is handing it's pilots but that gets us no where.
I can't see many cadets jumping at the oppertunity to pay an extra 4-5 grand to then be contracted for 3 years on a wage that wont cover their loan repayments but as stated by R T Jones already, if the oppertunity is there is it worth passing up so someone else can take it. In the case of the rumour of cadets having to fund a type rating upto £30,000... CTC has been a company that those without access to funding could join and realise their dream of become an airline pilot... the holding pool is currently comprised of those pilots and I think it highly unlikely that hardly anyone has access to that kind of money. If they do though are they willing to spend that extra dosh on a TR with little promise of a permanent contract?
I guess time will answer these questions.
It's really more to do with the timing of their strike... it is very possible that such action could cause BA to go bust. I hope that talks start before the strike occurs and resolves the issues.
As has already been stated though, we can sit here and speculate possible changes that could happen and moan about the raw deal that this industry is handing it's pilots but that gets us no where.
I can't see many cadets jumping at the oppertunity to pay an extra 4-5 grand to then be contracted for 3 years on a wage that wont cover their loan repayments but as stated by R T Jones already, if the oppertunity is there is it worth passing up so someone else can take it. In the case of the rumour of cadets having to fund a type rating upto £30,000... CTC has been a company that those without access to funding could join and realise their dream of become an airline pilot... the holding pool is currently comprised of those pilots and I think it highly unlikely that hardly anyone has access to that kind of money. If they do though are they willing to spend that extra dosh on a TR with little promise of a permanent contract?
I guess time will answer these questions.
But its interesting that the BA cabin crew are been slated with vitrol on this forum for doing exactly the same thing and standing up for there T&Cs!
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I actually think this is a good move, since it ensures mass bankruptcy for even the "lucky" few who get jobs.
Large numbers of defaulted loans is the ONLY way to stop these schemes.
Large numbers of defaulted loans is the ONLY way to stop these schemes.
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Don't fight this one
No one here is surprised one bit by this news.
The airline's management have made a perfectly rational decision.
Yes it's a disgrace and my initial reaction is that the senior pilots should take a stand, but on seconds don't do it, you'll get ripped apart. Why?
- these cadets have willingly chosen this option, and recognised the risk that on signing up for £70k, it's not a guaranteed job.
- if this goes to a full strike and the EZY press office get stuck in, there will be pictures of cadets standing outside mummy and daddy's big house talking of their hardship versus hard-up family deprived of their only ever holiday = PR disaster. Then management can really get stuck in.
- But above all, the cadets will keep coming and filling places so you're fighting a loosing battle. The TR could be £35k/£45k, people would still pay. It's a complete mess, but you can't loose sight of the fact that people have willingly choosen to take on these huge amounts of debt with no guarantees and therefore spun the dice (and we effectively now have risk takers in/wanting to be in the flight deck- but that's another topic).
The airline's management have made a perfectly rational decision.
Yes it's a disgrace and my initial reaction is that the senior pilots should take a stand, but on seconds don't do it, you'll get ripped apart. Why?
- these cadets have willingly chosen this option, and recognised the risk that on signing up for £70k, it's not a guaranteed job.
- if this goes to a full strike and the EZY press office get stuck in, there will be pictures of cadets standing outside mummy and daddy's big house talking of their hardship versus hard-up family deprived of their only ever holiday = PR disaster. Then management can really get stuck in.
- But above all, the cadets will keep coming and filling places so you're fighting a loosing battle. The TR could be £35k/£45k, people would still pay. It's a complete mess, but you can't loose sight of the fact that people have willingly choosen to take on these huge amounts of debt with no guarantees and therefore spun the dice (and we effectively now have risk takers in/wanting to be in the flight deck- but that's another topic).
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'- if this goes to a full strike and the EZY press office get stuck in, there will be pictures of cadets standing outside mummy and daddy's big house talking of their hardship versus hard-up family deprived of their only ever holiday = PR disaster. Then management can really get stuck in.'
That's exactly the problem isn't it. Guys like you who obviously don't know what they're talking about. These guys are on unsecured loans so they are from all walks of life. The perception that we are all starry eyed 19 years olds whose parents have bought us a job so they can tell the neighbours how wonderfully their son is doing is rubbish.
Fast forward 2 years and I will agree with you and am amazed that with the current information people are still signing up for slave labour terms and conditions.
There are 200 cadets swimming out there who have just been incredibly unluckly to see a good deal turn into slave labour in the space of a few months.
That's exactly the problem isn't it. Guys like you who obviously don't know what they're talking about. These guys are on unsecured loans so they are from all walks of life. The perception that we are all starry eyed 19 years olds whose parents have bought us a job so they can tell the neighbours how wonderfully their son is doing is rubbish.
Fast forward 2 years and I will agree with you and am amazed that with the current information people are still signing up for slave labour terms and conditions.
There are 200 cadets swimming out there who have just been incredibly unluckly to see a good deal turn into slave labour in the space of a few months.
Unless someone comes up with a masterstroke, I'm sure it'll remain a case of 'take what we're given and be grateful'.
Summer contracts are one thing. This is something completely different and many times worse. If I was in the position I was in last year, and this was the only offer on the table, I would be seriously considering jacking it all in.
Baguette, you can sit around all day proclaiming that "I set out to become an airline pilot 2 years ago and I'm going to achieve my goal" but believe me, the career really isn't worth what they're asking from you now. Forget all this romantic schoolboy notion about "being a pilot". I was lucky enough to secure a permanent contract, albeit miles away from my family and friends and missus in a country where I don't speak a word of the language, and as I'm sitting reading this and watching the constant and accelerating downward spiral, I'm starting to wonder what it was all for. That nice view out of the window starts to look the same after a while. It's easy for me to say, but people faced with the choice of a £28k type rating and 3 year contract on toilet-cleaner money would be better off packing up, going bankrupt and starting again with a clean sheet of paper. The industry is in a mess, and you won't realise what you've got yourself into until it's too late.
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I sincerely hope that the views expressed here will be kept out of the flight deck if any of the posters are EZY captains as it will make the working environment very unpleasant and not condusive to a low hours pilot focussing on their job properly if all this hellfire and brimstone is thrown at them from the left hand seat - I'm not saying you don't all have valid points but there is a lot of animosity going on in these threads...I'm glad I don't have to work with any of you! 
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Baguette. If you read some of the past posts in various Ryanair and EasyJet threads you'll get it.
These sorts of schemes are a cancer in todays aviation. As The Real Slim Shady (helpfully) points out, they have been going on for some time - BMI in the early to mid nineties, BAC Express and their Shorts 360 ratings. These "opportunities" weren't the normal way of getting the first leg up and were far and few between.
I know, I've been there, it's hard getting your first job but these schemes aren't helping future Ts and Cs in this industry. How on earth do you think you'll be able to move onto better paid, more stable employment if the employers you are likely to be targeting will only take on new batches of inexperienced cadets? It is happening now. Experience is a positive disadvantage as they can't make any money out of training you, you cost more to employ, you're probably better able to discern when you're being shafted and know when to say "No". BALPA's Log magazine recently had a very good article on the why's and wherefore's of these schemes and how they are affecting the industry today. You unfortunately find yourself caught in the crossfire.
This way of recruiting is very negative, divisive and, I believe, unsustainable. The other thing to remember is that you have proved yourself willing to fund your own type-rating and buy yourself into the industry. Perhaps you'll have to fund your next type course - and your next one, and your LPC/OPCs, buy your own uniform, pay for your medical, sort out your own pension arrangements, don't forget parking at work, security passes, disclosures, recurrent ground training, a bill for trainer time on line checks, pay for Cat C airfield clearances, your command upgrade. Better have good plastic.
Don't be a tart!
Spanner
These sorts of schemes are a cancer in todays aviation. As The Real Slim Shady (helpfully) points out, they have been going on for some time - BMI in the early to mid nineties, BAC Express and their Shorts 360 ratings. These "opportunities" weren't the normal way of getting the first leg up and were far and few between.
I know, I've been there, it's hard getting your first job but these schemes aren't helping future Ts and Cs in this industry. How on earth do you think you'll be able to move onto better paid, more stable employment if the employers you are likely to be targeting will only take on new batches of inexperienced cadets? It is happening now. Experience is a positive disadvantage as they can't make any money out of training you, you cost more to employ, you're probably better able to discern when you're being shafted and know when to say "No". BALPA's Log magazine recently had a very good article on the why's and wherefore's of these schemes and how they are affecting the industry today. You unfortunately find yourself caught in the crossfire.
This way of recruiting is very negative, divisive and, I believe, unsustainable. The other thing to remember is that you have proved yourself willing to fund your own type-rating and buy yourself into the industry. Perhaps you'll have to fund your next type course - and your next one, and your LPC/OPCs, buy your own uniform, pay for your medical, sort out your own pension arrangements, don't forget parking at work, security passes, disclosures, recurrent ground training, a bill for trainer time on line checks, pay for Cat C airfield clearances, your command upgrade. Better have good plastic.
Don't be a tart!
Spanner
e28 driver
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Spanner says it all and all those who have put their hand in their own pocket to secure a job have to a greater or lesser extent contributed to the current situation. And it's only going to get worse. I've been fortunate to have only had to sign bonds in my 9 years in the industry but I sure wouldn't like to be starting now.
P.S. I sent the following to your men;
Well done gentlemen
You and EasyJet together have ushered in a new era of slavery to the industry. I notice that many of you are former airline pilots yourselves (if 'Captain' actually means anything these days) and therefore it makes it all the more intriguing that you should invent such ways to separate our less experienced brethren (which I assume you once also were) from great sums of money from which you presumably reward yourselves handsomely and buy lots of stuff to reinforce your self importance.
I salute you sirs, one and all.
'Captain' XXX XXXXXXX.
P.S. I sent the following to your men;
Well done gentlemen
You and EasyJet together have ushered in a new era of slavery to the industry. I notice that many of you are former airline pilots yourselves (if 'Captain' actually means anything these days) and therefore it makes it all the more intriguing that you should invent such ways to separate our less experienced brethren (which I assume you once also were) from great sums of money from which you presumably reward yourselves handsomely and buy lots of stuff to reinforce your self importance.
I salute you sirs, one and all.
'Captain' XXX XXXXXXX.
Last edited by TDK mk2; 14th Dec 2009 at 22:16.
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I very rarely post here, but there are two recurring themes I constantly see cropping up in various threads on this subject that I would like to challenge... not because I expect anyone to change their opinions, but because if I don't at least stand up for myself no one else will.
First, regarding comments about CTC cadets referring to mummy and daddy. Until recently the loans were unsecured - some people seem to not understand that this means a rich mum and dad were not required to secure anything. That was one of the great appeals of the scheme as it was back then - if you had the "skills" then you could get a loan pretty much regardless of your background and live the dream..... of course the dream isn't what it was, but you tend to find that out £70,000 later.
The vast majority of cadets from CTC were not funded by mummy and daddy, and do not have large houses to cry outside of as suggested. in all but the exceptional cases the debt is the cadet's and no one else's.
I'm sorry to bring this up here, but I find such misinformed comments to be incredibly belittling and derogatory.
The second point that I find slightly irksome is the suggestion that I am adding to captains' fatigue levels. I have yet to have a captain leave the flight with a thousand yard stare, and every flight I can remember has had a pleasant and convivial flight deck environment with goodbyes at the end of the day usually comprising of "pleasure flying with you". Unless of course most captains are just accomplished liars! Further, I don't believe I am anything particularly out of the ordinary in that regard as all the impressions I get from captains regarding the CTC cadets is generally complementary. Of course there may always be the odd exceptions that prove the rule...
I understand that there are certain points to be made when pushing for better terms and conditions, and that low experience on the flight deck is a valid cause for concern. Equally however, I don't find the suggestion of cadet pilots such as myself causing captain's to go prematurely grey particularly productive.
With that said, back on topic - this new deal being presented to cadets is an order of magnitude worse than the summer contracts debacle, which was already leaving many feeling somewhat used and abused.
This new deal makes the last minute re-location, no holiday, no sick pay, part time work of this winter seem positively wonderful.
In some ways I am surprised anyone has signed up to such a blatantly horrific deal but at the same time I can understand why they have. HSBC have started taking an incredibly hard line towards us and are no longer accepting reduced repayments after 6 months, instead requiring the full amount or commencing debt collection actions if they are unable to take it out of our accounts. This is a problem even for the guys who are working this winter as it is not possible to afford the full newly amortized repayments on the part time wages.
So for those guys who don't even have the winter work I can understand that life must be looking so grim that they will take anything dangled in front of them! That combined with the seemingly typical shock tactic of "here's the deal but you start yesterday so you don't have time to think about it - yes or no now" must be quite difficult to overcome.
Of great concern though is that the flexicrew contract is up for renewal in January - one has to wonder whether it will involve a similar hourly rate deal which would be far inferior to what we are currently on, which itself is not sufficient at the moment to repay the loans.
The question is how we move on from this point without resorting to infighting and disparaging comments.
First, regarding comments about CTC cadets referring to mummy and daddy. Until recently the loans were unsecured - some people seem to not understand that this means a rich mum and dad were not required to secure anything. That was one of the great appeals of the scheme as it was back then - if you had the "skills" then you could get a loan pretty much regardless of your background and live the dream..... of course the dream isn't what it was, but you tend to find that out £70,000 later.
The vast majority of cadets from CTC were not funded by mummy and daddy, and do not have large houses to cry outside of as suggested. in all but the exceptional cases the debt is the cadet's and no one else's.
I'm sorry to bring this up here, but I find such misinformed comments to be incredibly belittling and derogatory.
The second point that I find slightly irksome is the suggestion that I am adding to captains' fatigue levels. I have yet to have a captain leave the flight with a thousand yard stare, and every flight I can remember has had a pleasant and convivial flight deck environment with goodbyes at the end of the day usually comprising of "pleasure flying with you". Unless of course most captains are just accomplished liars! Further, I don't believe I am anything particularly out of the ordinary in that regard as all the impressions I get from captains regarding the CTC cadets is generally complementary. Of course there may always be the odd exceptions that prove the rule...
I understand that there are certain points to be made when pushing for better terms and conditions, and that low experience on the flight deck is a valid cause for concern. Equally however, I don't find the suggestion of cadet pilots such as myself causing captain's to go prematurely grey particularly productive.
With that said, back on topic - this new deal being presented to cadets is an order of magnitude worse than the summer contracts debacle, which was already leaving many feeling somewhat used and abused.
This new deal makes the last minute re-location, no holiday, no sick pay, part time work of this winter seem positively wonderful.
In some ways I am surprised anyone has signed up to such a blatantly horrific deal but at the same time I can understand why they have. HSBC have started taking an incredibly hard line towards us and are no longer accepting reduced repayments after 6 months, instead requiring the full amount or commencing debt collection actions if they are unable to take it out of our accounts. This is a problem even for the guys who are working this winter as it is not possible to afford the full newly amortized repayments on the part time wages.
So for those guys who don't even have the winter work I can understand that life must be looking so grim that they will take anything dangled in front of them! That combined with the seemingly typical shock tactic of "here's the deal but you start yesterday so you don't have time to think about it - yes or no now" must be quite difficult to overcome.
Of great concern though is that the flexicrew contract is up for renewal in January - one has to wonder whether it will involve a similar hourly rate deal which would be far inferior to what we are currently on, which itself is not sufficient at the moment to repay the loans.
The question is how we move on from this point without resorting to infighting and disparaging comments.
Last edited by rusty_y2k2; 14th Dec 2009 at 22:32.
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Absolutely no sympathy. You all wanted to bypass the system and were willing to pay to do it. Now the managements are treating you like the short sighted idiots that you all are. In the process you have destroyed the terms and conditions in this industry and sent it on a downward spiral from which it will not recover. Now you have no prospects of permanent employment, god knows how much debt and have earned the utter contempt of nearly everyone in the business who have suffered from your "gimme it all now" attitude. Good luck job hunting with 500 hours or however much you managed to get. Now perhaps you realise that your schoolboy dreams of paying for 6 months line training will not automatically lead to a left seat at Emirates and the promises of the crooks at CTC and elsewhere were nothing more than bullsh*t.
If you want sympathy, look it up in the dictionary. Between sh*t and syphilis I believe.
If you want sympathy, look it up in the dictionary. Between sh*t and syphilis I believe.
You all wanted to bypass the system and were willing to pay to do it.
Presumably you're one of these types who thinks everyone has to log 20,000hrs in a knackered banner-towing taildragger before being allowed to consider themselves worthy of being a 'real pilot'.
The CTC Cadet scheme used to be a proven, respected route into the airlines for people who were the right stuff, before it all went to pot and became just another integrated course as it is today. It used to offer three big advantages over the traditional 0-fATPL - a 100% job placement record, a portfolio of partner airlines queueing to take cadets on, and unsecured finance to go and do it. None of these remain, but how were those unfortunate enough to be the victim of this latest screwing to know it would turn out like this?
How many times does it have to be repeated - most of the people finding themselves in this position now do so having signed up for the thing in the first place in good faith, in the middle of a massive hiring boom when the probability of the risk paying off was high. Regardless of the rights/wrongs of accepting the derisory contract on offer, your anger is misplaced.
By all means attack those who are still signing up for courses like CTC in the never-ending procession to join the back of the queue, or those who started the precedent by coming out of expensive schools and then finding €33k or whatever it is for a Ryanair/Brookfield job when credit was cheap (the system which, by and large, and apart from the few smaller cases mentioned earlier on, set the precedent for what we are seeing now.) But berating those who are right in the thick of this problem, through little or no fault of their own, is unfair.
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When it boils down to it, cadets are paying for training... not to fly for an airline. Infact if you know anything of the CTC scheme you will know that it is/was the airlines that paid for the type rating at the end of the course (of course the cadet was then bonded for 7 years working at lower wage than direct entry but certainly not pay to fly). The new terms of employment are just that, new and the numbers just might be incorrect... they may be worse, may be better but until we see official word can we really believe anything completely?
It sounds like you are refering to paying to fly for an airline such as RYR with the possibility of getting a job upon successful completion of line training.
It sounds like you are refering to paying to fly for an airline such as RYR with the possibility of getting a job upon successful completion of line training.
Last edited by poss; 15th Dec 2009 at 00:02.
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I rarely post on these forums but in recent weeks I have indeed been forced out of damm right necessity.
I am very pleased to see that HSBC are requiring the full repayment and they have every right to do so. Easyjet have been there own worst enemy here, no one either secured or unsecured will ever lend money to the likes of CTC cadets again once this fiasco has gone down. Its over and thank the good Lord for that! You have been undercutting everyone for years and you deserve this. This was the biggest aviation pyramid scheme ever and its over no one will let there kids go on the course once they have heard about this. Modular vs Integrated, guess who wins!
For any wannabes reading this give yourself the power to choose, work hard and get a second career like me, it can still be in the industry. Take out the minimum amount of debt possible, once the course is done you can choose to say yes or no to such offers and you won't have HSBC chasing your arse!
I am very pleased to see that HSBC are requiring the full repayment and they have every right to do so. Easyjet have been there own worst enemy here, no one either secured or unsecured will ever lend money to the likes of CTC cadets again once this fiasco has gone down. Its over and thank the good Lord for that! You have been undercutting everyone for years and you deserve this. This was the biggest aviation pyramid scheme ever and its over no one will let there kids go on the course once they have heard about this. Modular vs Integrated, guess who wins!
For any wannabes reading this give yourself the power to choose, work hard and get a second career like me, it can still be in the industry. Take out the minimum amount of debt possible, once the course is done you can choose to say yes or no to such offers and you won't have HSBC chasing your arse!
Modular vs Integrated, guess who wins!
There are enough threads elsewhere if you want to bring that old chestnut up again.
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When an accident occurs, there is a lot of sanctimonious twaddle spoken by people who were not there but would have done so much better than the people who were. Such is the case here, whereby pilots who are blessed to be in senior positions within the industry were presumably born from their mother's womb with a logbook containing 10,000 hours in their hands. They never had to struggle to get a job, required no help from anyone else and were just so employable they did not have to sell their souls like these nasty little CTC cadets. What they forget is that once upon a time, they too aspired to be an airline pilot. They sat down and read every possible book and magazine on the subject and worked out the route most likely to bring success. To some it was joining HM Forces, to others it was PPL, CPL, SCPL, ATPL, Instructor Rating, Turboprops and then jets. To still others it was Hamble cadetship. They did whatever they had to do to become pilots. Right now the only way to achieve that dream we all had is to become a CTC cadet. It costs a fortune but debt is way more acceptable today than it was previously, plus it was a clear route to a jet job. Who, hand on heart, can blame anyone for doing it? Plenty of you it would appear! What would you have done if you were starting out again? I know what I would have done - gone to CTC because I simply had no other choice. How can you be so self-righteous now as to blame these guys/gals for doing so?
We now have real-live airline pilots at easyJet living 3 to a room on mattresses on the floor to somehow stave off greater debt, and yet they are criticised for it. This is so wrong - these guys are becoming slaves in a way we never were. Rather than carp on from our ivory towers about 'back in the day', we must ensure that the latest entrants into our industry are protected from the vile excesses of Ruinair, Brookfield, easyJet and CTC. They are all part of the same deal - rich thieves getting richer whilst poor pilots get poorer. The only effective counter to this is BALPA - warts and all. They deserve our full support as without them this industry is finished.
We now have real-live airline pilots at easyJet living 3 to a room on mattresses on the floor to somehow stave off greater debt, and yet they are criticised for it. This is so wrong - these guys are becoming slaves in a way we never were. Rather than carp on from our ivory towers about 'back in the day', we must ensure that the latest entrants into our industry are protected from the vile excesses of Ruinair, Brookfield, easyJet and CTC. They are all part of the same deal - rich thieves getting richer whilst poor pilots get poorer. The only effective counter to this is BALPA - warts and all. They deserve our full support as without them this industry is finished.
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Right now the only way to achieve that dream we all had is to become a CTC cadet. It costs a fortune but debt is way more acceptable today than it was previously, plus it was a clear route to a jet job. Who, hand on heart, can blame anyone for doing it? Plenty of you it would appear! What would you have done if you were starting out again? I know what I would have done - gone to CTC because I simply had no other choice. How can you be so self-righteous now as to blame these guys/gals for doing so?
When you look at it in that context, then the whole situation is simply laughable and I would be laughing myself if someone had told me a few years ago, this is the predicament that we would be in. Sadly it is no laughing matter and the time to take action was when the rot first started.