Terms and EndearmentThe forum the beancounters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work. Let others in the industry make educated choices on where the grass is less brown! Scheduled, charter or contract -
So if you pay UK PAYE, you are earning £34693.00PA net, on 720 hours. Not bad, year 2 pretty good, but my understanding of Brookfield contracts is this, you are paid for scheduled flight time only, you do not have any basic pay as such, so if you have a month off you are not paid. Please feel free to correct me on this.
A friend of mine, has just joined our company, he is on, year one, low hours on type, our basic is £36500.00 gross, no flight hours required. Off shore of course. plus flight pay so a average year one is £44420.00, gross, including, insurance, medical, food, water, hotel, etc. for roughly the same hours.
not trying to knock Ryanair, i have little time for them, just showing there are very good alternatives out there.
Last edited by ford cortina : 7th November 2009 at 12:47.
There was a time when I heard the ATPL being descibed as the Doctorate of the airline world. Sadly, the multiple guess system we have today is far from it - we are NOT doctors, so we should not expect similar pay. However, that being said, by the time you've paid for your integrated and type rating I believe it comes close to how much a doctor has to pay - (although the doctor friend I have is from the US so the system might be different in the UK). If you put that much into your training then you should expect some rewards. The other day when I landed a full load in max crosswind conditions safely at 3 destinations I certainly earned my pay. A friend of mine has been working at an American investment bank for 2 years and is on £90k gross. Okay, he's in charge of millions in assets - consider everytime we light up the fires we're in charge of $70M of assets and countless $$$ in lives. From my perspective we're worth every penny and sometimes a lot more.
WWW - I know exactly what I net and it is a very fair sum thanks. Its a lot more than the people that have been made redundant under the protection of BALPA. And its a lot more than the hundreds of young guys and girls that are currently unemployed and prepared to do anything to get a job. That's the market we operate in. An employers market. Like houses, we're subject to that market. Anyone who doesn't understand that shouldn't be operating in a commercial environment. Try the Post Office would be my advice.
And FYI... I've never slept in my car, nor do I know anyone that has done so. You surely can't be as pig ignorant as you make yourself out to be? Forgive me, but aren't you meant to be a moderator? Shouldn't you be setting an example instead of talking out of your arse? Block me if you like - I won't be reading this thread again. You should close it if you have any sense which you obviously haven't.
Market forces yes, but the airline industry is not entirely subject to market forces as it operates in an enviroment of political, social and trade union factors. Ryanair is somewhat free of these as it ignores the first, and gives the finger to the last two. By implying BALPA is responsible for redundancies in one sentence and later claiming we operate in a commercial market you undermine your argument.
What I find depressing about this debate is not the bile exhibited amongst fellow pilots (which I can live with), but that it's really apparent many in the industry have lowered their expectations so much.
As has been noted already, a 100 years of social progress is being undone. Our forefathers, through organisations like BALPA, have campaigned over many years to improve our lot and many seem to be content to see all this go and in it's place working piecemeal for a shekel or two.
When Ryanair's lack of 'extras' is remarked on, their pilots retort only seems to mention uniform and IDs and the like. These aren't extras I'd be concerned about, think about PHI for when you go sick and employer pension contributions for when you're old. My lot provide PHI, which pays out 75% of pre-disablement salary up to retirement age, after that you can rely on a pretty descent pension. For info, a yr 2 F/O can expect the company to tip in £7500 per annum into his pot and this amount will increase in line salary increments and command etc.
Please take what bigots like D O Guerrero say about BALPA with a pinch of salt (suspect some sort of agenda is behind it and I doubt it's altogether wholesome), it's not the union that is causing job loses, it's to a degree inept management to blame, but moreover a factor of being a mature business. Things are fine and dandy in Ryanair whilst it's expanding and it may seem infallible now (Air Europe anyone?), but sooner or later this will stop. It will then be a mature business. When the next downturn happens, which it will...(!), I predict Ryanair will drop who it likes like a hot stone. From 1st hand experience over the years, BALPA, through member elected Company Councils, put a lot of effort into cajoling managements into things like voluntary severance and stand down. Don't expect such niceties with Ryanair.
Ryanair has provided very rapid advancement for many and provided a home for those who until now have been travellers around the industry. This is very good, however it's come at a price. Many here don't seem to aspire to more than a healthy pay check and are oblivious to the sense of professional dignity that inherited traditions within longer established carriers provide. When I see a Ryanair 737 park on the apron, I'm very sorry to say this, but the dark satanic mills of the Victorian era.
This fixed pattern roster thing. Now I can see the advantages in terms of planning life outside work, but we only have 900 per annum and with the pretty intense flying which the lo-cost airlines do, being available to work all of those days all year round will grind you down over the years, further more, with Ryanair's terms & conditions, when the 900 hr limit is breached, your pay will either reduce dramatically or stop all together.
As to what to do about this mess, well, shoot me down if you want, and I'm sure many will, but you need to get a union in there. It won't be able to perform miracles, but over time it will engender a sense of solitary amongst the workforce and start to improve your lot. As noted there is a lot to improve!
Zerotohero: 450 quid / month for your rating has to be deducted, since normal employers pay for the rating.
Im also flying Loco, and my company is making a profit. In year three i was making 85'000€ gross. I got my rating paid. Besides that I have a pension, I get hotels paid for if necessary, uniform paid for, I get free food on long days, I have NI, I get paid when I'm sick etc. etc.
Regarding the fix roster: how many days free of work do you have per year? Thats all that counts. I have ~160 days where I'm free of any duty. I rather have a request system than a fixed roster. It works pretty well in my company, and if it doesnt work for once, you can still switch easily if a colleague is prepared to switch, which is usually the case.
The whole point about Ryanair is, the company in the last years had fantastic results, but that the key employees dont seem to want to participate in this success! They rather drag down the conditions for everyone else in the business and listeing to some of the militant contributors in here, they are even proud of it.
I dont even wanna go down the route of the set up of the flight safety department, but fuel league tables dont go together with my approach of flight safety. There are more things in this regard within Ryanair.
Security at Birmingham regularly move on Ryanair "campers" from the car park! Im guessing they didnt get the premium car park pass
Im told at Belfast a Ryanair pilot lives in a camper van in the car park, I assume a Captain as he can afford the premium car park pass and camper van.
I admire the blinkered loyalty of some of the Ryan pilots on this thread, I can only assume most if all have never worked for any other company. Wait till you become expensive see how fast MOL drops you!
O and for the record I have never applied to or had any wish to apply to ryanair! I do however know several guys who work for, and have worked for ryan and have nothing good to say about them what so ever, other than the roster is ok if it suits your lifestyle. In fact most of the afore mentioned guys advise friends and family to avoid them like the plague! Tell me why would they say that with all the insider knowledge they have??
rubbish, i'm based there and not seen a thing. If there ever have been people seen sleeping in cars its maybe been someone not based there who had a drive to get there and is simply too early and catching a quick shut eye before reporting
Do you not see anything slightly amiss with your statement? Or see in it the exact problem that most people have with RYR?
Yep. I can. The only time I've ever fallen asleep is when I was in the taxi on the way back to my normal base. You see, the CAA aren't keen on you driving to other airfields other than your nominated base before a duty.
There are good reasons for that. Let me guess, you have to drive your own car to the other base too.... FFS, even Emerald airways (that doyen of staff care and consideration) didn't do that. (Well, they tried but got told off.)
The nearest RYR base that you can drive to would be Dublin, so you are saying that crews regularly drive for over 2 hours to another airport BEFORE a duty... Then drive home afterwards... Holy cow.
Last edited by Say again s l o w l y : 7th November 2009 at 20:31.
who said anything about driving for 2 hours there and then home again? some people can still have a drive of 30 mins or so to work.
Must fill you in then on a great feature of English motorways. They are called Services. They are littered up and down and provide some valuable rest on a long car journey. Maybe you'd prefer to drive non stop somewhere and crank the window down a touch before you nod off. Do you carry a lucozade bottle in the glove box incase nature calls too?
Well, I've just used a small bit of deduction and logic to work out that if you are based in Belfast and you often see people driving from other bases, then for crews based elsewhere, the nearest other base is over 2 hours away. Not rocket science.
What motorway services have got to do with aircrew fatigue I have no idea. You don't seem to be able to grasp the basic fundamentals of what I'm saying.
Whatever your thoughts, might I suggest you read a little document called CAP371, of course you aren't bound by it as you work for an Irish company and it is an advisory document for the rest of us as our own FTL manual takes precedence. See what it says about positioning before a duty. Note the word BEFORE.
Driving to your normal base is one thing, driving to another completely different. Let me guess, you don't sign on for work until you reach the other base either...
I used to be based 360 miles from where I lived, so I'm used to this issue. It is easily manageable by making sure you have somewhere to stay that isn't your car. Hard to do when you are being shuttled around the country from one day to the next.
Having learnt my trade on aircraft that didn't have toilets fitted, then I recommend you carry a bottle a bit bigger than a 500ml lucozade one.
If you can't work out the potential fatigue issues with this, then may I humbly suggest you try. Fatigue is a killer, end of story. I know more than one person who has ended up upside down in the central reservation of the M1 on the drive home from another base. After a punishing duty.
It ain't big and it certainly isn't clever. Or does fatigue not affect people who work for RYR?
Has anyone ever wondered, in their argument that RYR are making such good profits reletive to others, if they are comparing apples with apples. Many on this thread, in other occupation, argue that they are receiving pension contributions, PHI cover, no deductions for uniforms/sims etc. plus other duty benefits. RYR pays nothing of these. Further, they 'employ' more than 50% contractors. Thus they save a massive amount on government premiums. They also have the most extensive of add on charges for pax. Indeed, the travel section of DT calculated that in 2008 they made 650m on charges, but only 350m profit. Thus most of their profit is from avoiding employment costs common to most industries and other ancillery charges. Talk to your friends who earn over 50.000pa and ask them about their benefits included in their T's & C's as standard. Ask any friends who earn +80.000. You'll be amazed what they receive, AND expect. Look to ourselves and see how cheaply you've sold your souls. Then consider that if RYR had to pay these similar costs to its airline competitors what its profits would be. I suspect very little if any.
the services were for the benefit of sas as i'm guessing they are main land. the point was that when normal people need a rest we pull over but as sas only sleeps in a taxi to and from bases they wouldn't have experienced the joy of little chef.
once again who said I often see people driving from other bases. i was simply providing a reason why someone might have been seen parked up. employees are most certainly not moving between bases like that. i've better things to be getting on with than standing in dublin airport car parks counting fo's.
as the name of this thread suggests i doubt i'll ever get my point across to all you ryr supporters. might as well just
Nope, you just don't get it do you? Why would you need service stations? What has that got to do with anything to do with fatigue management?
Why are people parked up? If they are because of what you say, then how can you possibly say it's a sensible thing. You shouldn't need to fall asleep in your car before a duty. If you're early, then just go in and get things sorted out for the day at work. If you are falling asleep before you start work, then that is a serious problem.
Then drive home afterwards... Holy cow.
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