Terms and EndearmentThe forum the beancounters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work. Let others in the industry make educated choices on where the grass is less brown! Scheduled, charter or contract -
They will do the same as they have done before all. that is why I have never payed one penny to balpa, I advise you guys to resign or never sign up in the first place,
give your money to a charity etc a far more worthwhile cause
Guys
I am nothing more that one of your many passengers. A person who, thanks to Easy,Ryan,Jet,Bmi etc have been able to go to places that my parents could only dream of.
Are you really thinking of taking on Ryan at a time when their coffers are full of cash and they have plenty of trained staff ready and able to jump into your shoes. Your timing is as bad at the miners.
As a passenger let me say that none of the Loco airlines have much passenger loyalty. I will fly with whoever is the cheapest at the time. So if you disrupt Ryan for a while then I will just fly someone else. Doesn't matter whose name is on the plane.
If you really want to disrupt Ryan rather than its passengers (who you may not get back) then try working strictly to rule.
more assumptions,suppositions and conjecrure from the latest numpty to join the union busting argument.will soon see this chinless wonder join the way of slim and those about to offer themselves up on the altar mol and his pursuit of profit above all else cult.pilot999 or pilot666,let be having you.
hi geoff - great argument for letting my career going down the potty.so you can have a cheap swan of to wherever.maybe you should give us a call if anything develops and we will make sure that your flight is not disturbed.you nearly had me going there,you joker you.now switch off the light and go back to bed luvvy.
bongle bear - "if balpa recognition costs 1 job,in your estimation the cost is too high".what about the captain fired in stn last week by ryanair union busting management for talking about a union.does that same logic apply?is that job loss equally of value,or was it all balpas fault for getting him fired.
pilots of ema beware slim and his missus abusing the sky are about to open a can of union busting whoop ass on you.they assume you have no brains of your own and that they should do your thinking for you.
Repa
I have read your post on here carefully, and find you a committed BALPA member, for which I applaud your fortitude.
BUT
You are so convinced in the right of your cause that you have lost sight of the big picture, and whose lives you will be seriously effecting.
Every person who does not agree with you is labled a management stooge, but I can see here that we are takling real people, something you are not prepared to accept.
When your self interest effects the lives / jobs of your colleagues, that is the time when you should step back and re-evaluate your goals.
The job market is so poor at the moment and will be for at least a year, and there are many pilots willing to take your jobs.
Should you wish to put your job and many others at risk for little or no positive return then I think at your next medical you should tell the doctor that you have a mental disorder.
You may think that calling the bluff of RYR will result in you and the BALPA members winning the day, I am sorry to say that from the outside looking in that you do not have a hope in winning, and you will be responsible for loosing jobs.
Like Day_Dreamer stated the Loss of even one job is too high a price to pay.
You have not looked into what would happen to the hundreds of lives which would be touched by one base closure, only looking at "ME" factor !!!
Its time to consider the "US" side including Famillies, Pilots, Engineers, Cabin Crew and Ground Staff.
I have only seen one party making intimidatory memos and setting out rumours across the network through the various channels. So true to form who do you think it likely is?
I can say that Ryanair management are here on PPRuNe to stir the pot. It's all about making the pilots feel isolated and as individuals and a minority no matter what your beliefs or way of thinking. Split and all is won for management.
Divide and conquer. Divide and conquer and implement fear. It is the only way Ryanair management know how to play. Individuals need to be able to see this surely? Management must be rubbing their hands in glee at seeing these tactics work. Please wake up and realise what these types of tactics are for, what and how they are used. They want to set pilots against each other in such a way as when there is no cohesion and turning on each other as it is easier to spilt a group and do what their agenda is. Simple warfare tactics is that.
Sorry but I think you have to see this for what it is. Collectively and as one is the only way this whole situation and mess will be sorted out.
Guys
I am nothing more that one of your many passengers. A person who, thanks to Easy,Ryan,Jet,Bmi etc have been able to go to places that my parents could only dream of.
Are you really thinking of taking on Ryan at a time when their coffers are full of cash and they have plenty of trained staff ready and able to jump into your shoes. Your timing is as bad at the miners.
As a passenger let me say that none of the Loco airlines have much passenger loyalty. I will fly with whoever is the cheapest at the time. So if you disrupt Ryan for a while then I will just fly someone else. Doesn't matter whose name is on the plane.
If you really want to disrupt Ryan rather than its passengers (who you may not get back) then try working strictly to rule.
Quote:
the grim repa hi geoff - great argument for letting my career going down the potty.so you can have a cheap swan of to wherever.maybe you should give us a call if anything develops and we will make sure that your flight is not disturbed.you nearly had me going there,you joker you.now switch off the light and go back to bed luvvy.
A great response to a passenger, it's the passengers that generate the revenue that PAY YOUR wages.
You seem to think that MOL wont have an airline without you.
Without people like Geoff in York, buying tickets, you wont have a job.
Geoff makes a fair point. It is not a good time to throw your toys out of the pram and make demands.
Geoff makes a fair point that LoCo ticket buyers dont have brand loyalty.
Yet all you can do to a fair comment from a passenger is to be rude and derisory? Very professional! Yet with the same breath you demand dignity and respect?
I wont hold my breath waiting for the sound of the "pop" from your head coming out of your ass.
Last edited by Bruce Wayne : 2nd July 2009 at 18:01.
All very interesting.....wish I had been unionised when I lost my job, maybe a little compensation might have come my way....however, when is this "vote" to take place? Can you simply not vote yes/no and get on with the outcome? As it is, you guys can open up thread after thread on these FR issues and still NOTHING will get resolved! Vote, and move on. Still all very enjoyable reading.........but pointless
Some people seem to think that when the industry returns to health and those of us fortuitous to leave do, then the T&Cs for the rest of you will go up because we need to keep pilots.
In 2007 this very same thing happened. A recognition campaign, same sorts of whining/personal bashing on one side, intimidation and moaning on the other. The outcome of that campaign didn't go well as Ryanair's gloating afterwards let us all know.
Many pilots took that opportunity to leave. Terms and conditions didn't increase across the board. At least not for FOs. The removal of the SFO rank meant the payscales were reduced. On top of that, FO pay went down to where it is today (for those of you who are new, Captains and FO used to get the same sector pay). Captains got a slight rise in sector pay and everybody went from the 5/3 roster to a 5/4 roster. That was good. However, DECs were promised bases other, longer serving pilots had been trying to get back to for years. That's bad. Eventually, with every successive command upgrade and DEC, the basic salary for Captains decreased to where it now stands, I believe at just over £50k, wiping out any gains made in 2007.
The company made 435M Euro net profit in 2006/2007.
This is anecdotal in nature and no doubt people will jump all over this to prove a point one way or the other. To me it says that if people leave (and you stay), your terms and conditions do not necessarily change for the better, as I have seen happen a couple of times already in this company. Others will come in to replace the ones who left at reduced cost. If they don't come in enough numbers the company will offer incentives to the new joiners, not to everybody. You won't realise this is happening because the company doesn't annouce who gets what, which is why in any one crew room there might be half a dozen contracts depending on what year you joined and how much you were prepared to negotiate.
That is why one of the things I believe "dignity and respect" stands for is the ability to make sure everyone is on the same playing field. That one group is not being - temporarily - favoured over another to the detriment of current pilots. If we stand together and say "if this base closes for commercial reasons we're not going to accept being made redundant if there are positions open in other bases" - for example - and have the legal right to be heard, be backed up by the other unionised bases (and yes, take action if needed), then you are in a stronger position. Right now, with no unity, if Damacles sword decides to fall on you, you just have to accept it. Your fellow collegues who are busy protecting their jobs by opposing recognition will count themselves lucky it didn't fall on them and most will feel bad but at the end of the day they'll count themselves lucky to be still in a job and get back to standing under that swinging sword.
bongle bear - "if balpa recognition costs 1 job,in your estimation the cost is too high".what about the captain fired in stn last week by ryanair union busting management for talking about a union.does that same logic apply?is that job loss equally of value,or was it all balpas fault for getting him fired.
It was his own fault, not BALPAs or Ryanairs. He knew the risks he was taking by discussing this during working hours. I'm not saying I agree with his dismissal, but it is his own fault.
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pilots of ema beware slim and his missus abusing the sky are about to open a can of union busting whoop ass on you.they assume you have no brains of your own and that they should do your thinking for you.
I disagree. I fly with "slim and his missus" quite often and I know their intentions. He has made it quite clear that he will not be chasing certain promotions within the companies training department due to license restrictions.
What Slim, in my opinion, is trying to do is point out that hardly anyone wants BALPA anywhere near EMA or EMT, therefore not even letting it get to the point where the 10% of BALPA members could push this vote through.
It would now appear that BALPA don't want to listen to this, as they have made clear in email responses.
Terry - or your stand in; because you're on your holidays (perfect timing, just like your whole campaign) - there have been over 93% of EMA and EMT based pilots saying they don't want BALPA - the other 7% didn't even say yes, those were abstain votes.
Please don't persue this at our base, through Captain L*****s work it has been made clear that as a base you're not wanted.
What are you going to do if I lose my job because you force your way in?
What are you going to do if I lose my job because you force your way in?
Please explain: the recognition campaign is based on the results of a vote which , if not made in Iranian style, should see the majority as the winners.
How do you force your way in?
Another question: will you loose your job because the majority has voted for what is a constitutional right?
In the civilized world no one should loose their jobs because they democratically voted for a union with the intent of helping the company AND the employees grow together.
Yes dannyalliga, no one should loose their jobs but they will do. Its time people realised this.
Its time to start thinking about the real possibility of loosing your job, your flightdeck friends, your cabin crew friends, the engineers who you call on for weight changes/problem solving - all loosing their jobs.
**I ask the question again - if you vote yes and end up loosing your job, will you still say Balpa is the answer???**
One final point, Grim, i usually find your posts well thought out and informative even though we are of differing opinions. However of late they have unfortunately become a mass of impolite, aggressive and immature name calling. Shame on you!!
I am not commenting about whether you or anybody should vote for or against BALPA, since I do not work for RYR, nor have anything to do with it. However, I am highly amazed how anybody can defend/rationalize sacking a employee for merely discussing joining a union (cabin or cockpit).
We are not talking about plans to kill MOL, sabotage airplanes or spy on company secrets, we are talking about discussing basic employee rights, the right to form a union.
I am sure anybody agrees that merely talking about it should not be a reason to dismiss anybody, but how on earth can it be his own fault then?
Is RYR allready the 1984 equivalent where merely speaking your mind gets you teminated (or at least your contract?). What's next, anybody heard complaining about a long working day gets sacked? Complaining about a stale (bought) sandwich gets dismissed? It is not his fault, it is the fault of the responsible manager who got him fired and therefore the company...
I do agree that it might not have been the smartest thing to do in a company like RYR, but landing on Omaha beach wasn't either. And was it your own fault if you got shot there?
Again, I do not work for RYR, nor fly with them or have close friends who do any of those two, but I am appalled that this 19th century practice is still in use and that there are people who, with a crazy logic, do condone it..
Whilst the guy's dismissal was unfortunate there is always more to it than meets the eye: think what you see of the iceberg vs what is below the waterline.
He also had BALPA representation: lot of good that did him!!!
Mr Wake Turbulence,
We work for this company because apart from a couple of small issues it is a good place to be: well paid, secure, don't get messed around with our rosters, new equipment, stacks of leave etc.
What you have here are maybe 6 hardcore whingers out of over 2000 pilots: the whingers who are trumpeting the cause of unionisation have, in general, been with the company a long time.
They haven't had, they don't have, nor will have, a snowball's chance of getting BALPA or any ALPA recognition, but even though they don't like the place, they don't quit and join an airline which has the "dignity,respect and redundancies" they crave.
The vast majority, most who are a silent majority, go to work (employee ) do their jobs very well, go home at the end of every day ( no night stops you see) and pick up a not insubstantial pay check at the end of the month and a further sector payment in the middle of the month.
all. that is why I have never payed one penny to balpa, I advise you guys to resign or never sign up in the first place, 
The Future of Ryanair?
Shame on you!!
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