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Terms and Endearment The forum the beancounters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work. Let others in the industry make educated choices on where the grass is less brown! Scheduled, charter or contract -


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Old 2nd July 2009, 12:40   #141 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: UK FIR
Posts: 79
Found something on union recognition on a UK government website (Statutory union recognition | Business Link)


Quote:
From 6 April 2005, new legislation will change the process of statutory trade union recognition. If you employ 21 or more workers a union may ask you for recognition. If you agree to this, the statutory recognition process is completed.

If you ignore or refuse the request the union may apply to the Central Arbitration Committee (CAC) for recognition for all or part of your workforce. CAC will accept the application if:

at least 10 per cent of the workers are union members
the majority of the workers are likely to favour union recognition
The CAC will then decide whether to automatically recognise the union or hold a ballot. If a ballot is called:

you will need to co-operate with the CAC in arranging the ballot
you must let the union have reasonable access to your workers, and allow the workers to go to union meetings
you should not attend the meetings or try and find out what happened at them
you must not intimidate or unduly influence your workers during the balloting process
the costs of the ballot will be shared by you and the union
If a majority supports recognition and makes up at least 40 per cent of the balloted workforce, you must recognise the union.

You can also apply for derecognition of a union using the same system if:

you have employed fewer than 21 workers over any 13 week period
three years have passed since CAC awarded recognition to the union
you have not already made an application in the last three years
I have put a section in bold to highlight it; you must not intimidate or unduly influence your workers during the balloting process

Surely threatening base closure and job losses is covered by this legislation?
If all you guys who are so against union recognition don't yet understand, if you roll over and allow the airline management to get away with something as fundamental as this - you will not be safe. It isn't about BALPA, this is about your long term job security. Try thinking a little further than this.

Consider the Southwest Airlines model that Ryanair professes to copy - Southwest have the highest level of union membership among aircrew, and the lowest level of staff turnover and some of the best T&Cs in the US. Is this maybe something to consider?
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Old 2nd July 2009, 12:59   #142 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Dre's mum's house
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Quote:
you must not intimidate or unduly influence your workers during the balloting process
That's rich bearing in mind the threats my partner has just received from BALPA members!
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Old 2nd July 2009, 13:05   #143 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: BHX-MAN-EMA
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TO THE BALPA SUPPORTERS.

Answer the question "What will BALPA do for the RYR and Brookfield pilots when they get in"

What will BALPA do for the unemployed of LTN, BRS, LPL, EDI when their bases are closed after a yes vote ?
What they did for me in '79 cheque for £200 to help with initial expenses and their best wishes for a speedy return to work. (So they can recoup the £200 through membership dues)

Are you so blind that you cant see that there will be job losses if any bases votes in BALPA. These are not idle threats I am sure.
DO YOU want to see yourselves as the sole reason for many good men and women losing everything they have to support YOUR EGO.

Why dont you see that this is NO BLUFF.

I do not work for RYR or any associated company.
After 37+ years in this industry I have seen it all from Laker Airways who was one of the best employers in the Industry to the demise of Dan Air Services when BALPA sold out the majority of it members after BA bought them for £1.

The financial statements made on here about BALPA are fact, the monies come from the 1% subscriptions, and the Legal cover comment is true, only if they think they can win on your behalf.

BALPA will only work if its a two way street, clearly in RYR this will never happen.

Stop this attitude that BALPA will save jobs and improve conditions.
You Idiots are heading down the road of self destruction, straight to the unemployment line.

Do you want that for yourself and your colleagues, if BALPA recognition costs 1 job let alone a complete base the price is too high.
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Old 2nd July 2009, 13:10   #144 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 3433N 06912E
Posts: 201
Quote:
B W.

When confronted with choices, possibly life or death decisions, as a Pilot.

First define what the Problem is that requires an action. Then you gather as much Information as possible. Then identify your Options. Once you have all your options, you then need to Select one. And then you Execute the option you selected. Most important you need to Evaluate your selected option and continue the process if necessary.

With me so far......

So the problem that exits in Ryanair.

Problem - Constant degradation in terms and conditions.

Information - Personal experience from being here for so long.

Options - Keep head down and take it up the ***.
Get together with fellow employees and push for Union Rec. or as you suggest Start own Airline.

After That you'll prob want me to buy the loss making airline next door also......

Good job you management types don't have to do 6 month sim checks etc.
1. Your analysis is wrong.
2.(a) If you don't like your T&C's then LEAVE for another operator (you wont because the chances of another operator hiring right now is less than minimal).
(b)T&C's are going down. YES! it is endemic and it is across the board as airlines are fighting for survival right now, see point 2(a). Because of FR's posted figures for last financial year doesn't mean that it is not STILL facing an unstable industry and an unstable economy. Major carriers are still laying off crews, see point 2(a)
3. You have no idea as to my background.
4. Was last in the sim in March thanks. see point 3.


It really doesn't matter what is said to you, you have your perception and cannot appreciate the wider picture and that is fine. You are welcome to your views and opinions and to be honest i will not lose once iota of sleep over it.

You fail to understand the point that yes, while i agree with better T&C's in the industry as it provides operators with a stable crew platform it also leads to a lower attrition rate which provides economic advantages to a carrier.

IE. if you are in an ideal world and have a crew base of 200 pilots that are happy and never going to leave what are your recruiting, indoc, initial costs ? As low as they are ever going to be !

We do not live in utopia, its the real world. Some crew, no matter what they get, will always be unhappy.

There has to be a compromise, seeking union representation in probably the worst down turn in 50 years, maybe longer, is not going to benefit anyone apart from the union.

Do you really think the Union gives a stuff about *you*? Do you honestly think that any specific person is going to be awake at night worried about your future, your career, your mortgage, the shoes on your kid's feet, your expiring currency ? your prospects of getting an alternative left/right seat (or F/E seat) position.

No. Its a job, they get paid not matter if you do or do not. It is a business, like an airline is a business.

They have the potential of what, 2,000 additional subs? You think that is not a factor of interest ?

There is a dearth of crews available right now, from guys with time on type, line experience, to those looking at getting out of hold pools, to those looking for a first right seat jet job.

What do you have to gamble with ? your jobs ?

What is the worst case scenario, for you, MOL/LHC shuts bases, sh*t cans the lot of you and shoves everyone onto contractor terms?

Like i said, you have to evaluate the situation and that accounts for considering the worst case scenario. Is now the right time to be pushing for more ?

And sorry, but the B/S of BALPA's Dignty and Respect !!

Quote:
dignity
• noun (pl. dignities) 1 the state or quality of being worthy of respect. 2 a composed or serious manner. 3 a sense of pride in oneself.
respect
• noun 1 a feeling of admiration for someone because of their qualities or achievements. 2 due regard for the feelings or rights of others. 3 (respects) polite greetings. 4 a particular aspect, point, or detail.
They are subjective. If BALPA is pinning their integration into FR crew on those issue, sorry, that is frankly piss-poor.

When FR face soaring costs from a large attrition rate, T&C's will improve. Right now the only attrition rates in the industry are not out of choice but out of necessity see point 2(a).

If you want to get into life and death discussions, what do you do in heavy turbulence.. increase the EPR, re trim and push along regardless ?

Or do you account for the surrounding situation?

These are turbulent times and those that account for that will come out of it with the cleanest trousers and hopefully intact.

It really is worthwhile considering the views of others that have been through turbulent times before, the experiences, who survived and who didn't.

Last edited by Bruce Wayne : 2nd July 2009 at 13:50.
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Old 2nd July 2009, 13:16   #145 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Can i ask my FD colleagues who DO NOT want BALPA recognition if they received a threatening PM asking to back off and stop posting your views or was it just me?

Why is this BALPA member so scared of a little CC voicing her views and opinions on this matter?

And should i have crossed the line, how come the Mods never warned me or banned me?

And another thing gentlemen. How come when someone disagrees with someone else, they are suddenly branded as "management"?
The person who pm-ed me last night knows me very well apparently and he can tell you i am not management.
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Old 2nd July 2009, 13:21   #146 (permalink)
 
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You were "threatened" blimey, what did the PM say?

I hope you contacted the police!
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Old 2nd July 2009, 13:29   #147 (permalink)
 
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whatdoesthisbuttondo,

Better than that. I copied it and sent it to BALPA asking if the statements by someone "delegated to write by BALPA members" is official BALPA policy.

Somehow I think that they will be taking fairly large steps in the opposite direction rather than supporting the membership on this one!!
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Old 2nd July 2009, 13:30   #148 (permalink)
 
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for all those now feigning threats and intimidation on PPRuNe,let's see the pm etc.if that is the best that the management stooges can come up with here and now,then they know they have lost the "**** you jack,i'm alright" argument !pathetic, a master plan by the union busting ryanair management to make their troops on the line look like they have been abused by those nasty balpa riff-raff.
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Old 2nd July 2009, 13:32   #149 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: london, uk
Posts: 163
To answer the question, I haven't received any threatening PM's. I have only had a PM as a reply to a message from Grim Repa, for the record it was well written and informative.

I did however receive a copy of the PM sent to the EMA based number 1. It's getting ridiculous now. If it really is from BALPA then how can they still claim that "threats from management should not be tolerated"? You've reduced yourselves to the same level of those idiots in the whitehouse.

Has this whole campaign blinded you? You're becoming the same as them.

Everyone needs to grow up, stop trying to intimidate people. It's pathetic.

Great post from Day_Dreamer, thanks for that. Just to warn you, you'll be branded management now.

Day_Dreamer's final comment is worth a repeat:

Quote:
if BALPA recognition costs 1 job let alone a complete base the price is too high
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Old 2nd July 2009, 13:34   #150 (permalink)
 
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Grim

You don't need to see it.

It has been sent to BALPA HQ with a request for clarification of their policies.
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Old 2nd July 2009, 13:44   #151 (permalink)
 
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abusing the sky - very serious accusation of intimidation there.lets see the evidence.
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Old 2nd July 2009, 13:53   #152 (permalink)
 
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The game is afoot.

And so the fun and games begin. Stir with a big stick and then complain when hit by the inevitable splatter. A tried and tested recipe.
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Old 2nd July 2009, 13:56   #153 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
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Ryanair's Intimidation campaign has already cost One Job already.
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Old 2nd July 2009, 14:17   #154 (permalink)
 
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so there is no evidence of alleged intimidation.

should however any such evidence become apparent.let us be under no doubt that intimidation,bullying and terror are the hallmarks of ryanairs union busting management and not balpa/pilots.
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Old 2nd July 2009, 14:28   #155 (permalink)
 
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Grim

Simply because we elect not to share it with you doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

It was sent to BALPA HQ with a request for clarification.
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Old 2nd July 2009, 14:34   #156 (permalink)
 
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management tool,intimidation,bullying and terror.

all due respect slim,but we could all insinuate sorts of things on here but without any basis or evidence.they remain just insinuations.

it is very interesting to note though that no pilots ever comes on here to defend ryanairs union busting management against allegations of bullying,intimidation,abuse and threatening behaviour.posibly it is because the management are so ariculate in providing daily written,but cowardly unsigned memos and email containing such proof of the above mentioned behaviour.
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Old 2nd July 2009, 14:36   #157 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Dre's mum's house
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Well Grim

the originator of the PM, DawnWarne may wish to note this extract:

Quote:
Section 127 of the Communications Act 2003 creates offences regarding improper use of public electronic communications network, either to send by means of network a message/other matter which is grossly offensive or of an indecent, obscene or menacing character or causes any such message or matter to be so sent for purpose of causing annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety to another, sends by means of network, a message that he knows to be false, causes such a message to be sent.

127(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he sends by means of a public electronic communications network a message or other matter that is grossly offensive or of an indecent, obscene or menacing character or causes any such message or matter to be so sent.

127(2) A person is guilty of an offence if, for the purpose of causing annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety to another, he sends by means of a public electronic communications network, a message that he knows to be false, causes such a message to be sent or persistently makes use of a public electronic communications network.
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Old 2nd July 2009, 14:43   #158 (permalink)
 
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will you forward that on to ryanair management or will i?
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Old 2nd July 2009, 14:47   #159 (permalink)
 
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PM sent Grim
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Old 2nd July 2009, 15:04   #160 (permalink)
 
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alleged intimidation

there is no smoking gun here.the pm is friendly and expresses opinion and advice in a friendly manner.there has been no imtimidation and those who wish to tar balpa with the ryanair union busting management threats,bullying,terror and intimidation brush are going to have to come up with far more than over sensitivities.certainly not even the slightest hint that anyone other than a pilot based at slims base has rumbled him and his other half and sent then a pm.
so the search goes on for a ryanair pilot to defend ryanair managements intimidatory and abusive treatment of its staff.first prize,honorary balpa membership for a year.
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