Terms and EndearmentThe forum the beancounters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work. Let others in the industry make educated choices on where the grass is less brown! Scheduled, charter or contract -
If you read the name of the thread, Ryanair thoughts, you will then realize that i have every right to get involved and have my say as
a) I too work for FR
b) The BALPA involvment (if any) within the company's managerial decisions WILL affect MY (and not only mine, there's the engineers, the ground staff, the pregnant ladies on ground duties) job (and career) too, in so many ways i dread to even think about.
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As for the food, now where did you get that info, your fella,
If my partner works or doesn't work for FR is completely irrelevant and with all due respect, none of your business. It might come as a surprise to you but i am capable enough to do my own research, make an opinion and state it as I see it fit.
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It is not for you to decide the careers of other pilots
Please enlighten me, where have i made a statement that made you believe that? Of my only 3 posts on this thread, one contained a CC's view on the BALPA matter and how it will affect the CC's jobs/career, one was simply asking a question with regards to the so called BALPA "expenses" after a quick research on it's website and reading the BALPA Year End Accounts 2007 (which is a public document) and this post which is a reply to yours.
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It is for each pilot to weigh up the facts and make their own judgement, and then decide in their own career interest
Indeed it is. However, IMHO, that statement is a tad arrogant. What i read between the lines is that pilots should put career first before families, loved ones, friends and so on. With the help of BALPA, of course.
Have you got a family Mr. yourvoteyourchoice? Kids? How would you feel not having the chance to tuck them into bed every night when you're on earlies and take them to school when you're on lates? Because that's what is going to happen if BALPA gets its way; people have said this time and time again: MOL will close the UK bases, relocate a/c's and transfer crews all over Europe. Result? Lives ruined because of BALPA's greediness...
And Mr. yourvoteyourchoice, as long as i still work for FR and have a career with them, i will always have my opinion on work related issues. And i will always state it, either you like it or not. Free speech and all that...
"Bad Decisions" made by the Current CEO, who did not start Ryanair, and is merely an employee, by the way.
The proof of which would be the result I suppose.
Pig headed fuel hedging policy.
Gambling shareholders money on crazy take over bids.
Are they good or bad decision
Your post sums up your understanding of how businesses work.
What is stopping you putting a business plan together, obtaining the management team and the funding to start an operation that will make all the *right* decisions ?
Last edited by Bruce Wayne : 2nd July 2009 at 11:51.
Are you aware that Ryanair frequently terminate CC's before their first anniversary. I believe they can make profit by the conveyor belt training system.
As a fellow employee I welcome your view here, although I don't agree with it. I understand your concerns about the possibility of losing your job, but that will be as a direct result of the companies action.
How does your conditions compare to someone in a similar role in a company, that respects it's employees and are willing to negotiate on terms and conditions.
In reply to someone's post - can't remember who: To say the base freezes are due to the BALPA campaign and not due to commercial pressures (i.e. COST) of APD, and that the press releases were, to all intents and purposes, a diversionary tactic, is a tad... paranoid, in my humble opinion.
Was the base closure at Valencia due to BALPA or any other union for that matter? What happened to those pilots? Did they get a nice relocation allowance or did they get told "tough s**t, you'll be working out of Bergamo next week?"
To say the base and promotion freezes are due to the BALPA campaign, when Ryanair itself has said it is not, AND there is historical proof that Ryaanir will close bases due to commercial pressures (or in VLC's case, because it had a tiff with the municipal govt.) - proves how intimidated some of you really are.
And to someone else - no I never worked for Beardy Branson.
When confronted with choices, possibly life or death decisions, as a Pilot.
First define what the Problem is that requires an action. Then you gather as much Information as possible. Then identify your Options. Once you have all your options, you then need to Select one. And then you Execute the option you selected. Most important you need to Evaluate your selected option and continue the process if necessary.
With me so far......
So the problem that exits in Ryanair.
Problem - Constant degradation in terms and conditions.
Information - Personal experience from being here for so long.
Options - Keep head down and take it up the ***.
Get together with fellow employees and push for Union Rec. or as you suggest Start own Airline.
After That you'll prob want me to buy the loss making airline next door also......
Good job you management types don't have to do 6 month sim checks etc.
I've been in Ryanair long enough to see CC coming and going. I am aware of the money FR makes out of training the CC. I am also aware of the fact that if you don't do the job as they want you to do it, you're out. That's why such huge CC turnover in FR: because the majority don't see the reality of it, they are so disappointed, they find it very hard work and can't cope.
Do i agree with every decision the management makes? No, not at all. But it's a job, it pays the bills. Better have one than none. And I have my good and my bad days, but oddly enough for some, i enjoy it.
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How does your conditions compare to someone in a similar role in a company, that respects it's employees and are willing to negotiate on terms and conditions.
I would suspect it's pretty much the same elsewhere. I never, once, had been picked on by the management and be treated like a door mat. I go in, do my job, come back and pick up the money at the end of the month. Guess i'm good at what i do methinks...
Can I go back to the point about the EMA anti- BALPA ballot:
Whether you believe in BALPA or not, there should be a fair and anonymous vote for everyone to make their own choice so that majority rule can prevail.
If you don't want BALPA, then either vote no or don't vote at all at the subsequent ballot. But there should be a ballot to find out what the majority wants.
To not have the ballot in the first place is un-democratic.
Abusing the Sky, with all my respect, I really don't think you should be part of this discussion. We all know how CC gets abused in RYR and believe me they if anybody need to get unionised! So for you to join into this discussion sounds to me like a little strange, almost as if you had some good advice from your superiors... May I remind you of why a captain got dismissed recently? Tell me how that all started? Please assure me you do not hold any kind of managerial position within your base? We all know the scam behind the training companies and my personnal opinion is that there is a great level of abuse with contracts from management. Nobody wants to lose anything here, starting with their job and base, but look at your situation now, what makes you think that RYR would have a problem to close a base with or without balpa?
Abusing the Sky. . . Yes, of course you're "good at what you do".
You turn up, work hard for some of the worst Ts and Cs around, you don't complain etc.
Do you honestly believe (m)any other airline pilots are on the same Ts and Cs as ryanair? Really?
Are you going to work at your current rate until you are 55-60? When you retire what pension will you get? What job protection do you have? What happens if your base closes, if your company want to relocate you, what package will you get? What private health , staff travel arrangements do you get? What happens if you get ill and are off long term?
I am just a No1 and i can assure you that i wouldn't go to any management positions even if they were offered to me on a silver plate; the only time i get to be a "manager" is when i operate and i'm "managing" my crew.
I said it before that a) i have every right to post here as i too work for FR and i believe that BALPA will do nothing but jeopardize my job and b) i am not being "advised" by anyone, these are my opinions and, i'm sorry to come out of my "ladylike" zone, but opinions are like a$$holes: everyone has one. Is it that hard to believe that a tiny CC who knows she's just a number on the payroll has actually the "balls" to voice over her beliefs?
Isn't that a bit selfish gentlemen, it's all "pilots pilots pilots" and with all due respect you obviously have more training and more responsabilities, but how about the 150 odd CC in my base when the base closes, how about the engineers and so on?
The sensibile folks know exactly what MOL will do should the recognition go through, people have said it time and time again, and there will be NOTHING BALPA can do about it. It's going to happen based on a "commercial decision" and the BALPA buggers will sit back and pocket the (your!) membership money.
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what makes you think that RYR would have a problem to close a base with or without balpa?
VLC had a very good performance as a base, yet MOL closed it after a tiff with the apt authorities. Don't you think the same will happen with the UK bases as i would class what's going on between BALPA and FR management a pure tiff??
Frankly gentlemen, your arrogance is astonishing. You want the Fairy BALPA to (maybe, depending on which side of the bed they got out that morning) back you up at the cost of everyone else losing their jobs. Nice one!
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Are you going to work at your current rate until you are 55-60? When you retire what pension will you get? What job protection do you have? What happens if your base closes, if your company want to relocate you, what package will you get? What private health , staff travel arrangements do you get? What happens if you get ill and are off long term?
I'll cross that bridge when i come to it but thank you for your concern. i might decide next year that i want to be a housewife, who knows, but for the time being i'd like to stay where i am. If the base closes, it will only be because of the "unionasation".
I have a private pension fund that will see me through the years when i'm old and wrinkly. I have private healthcare which isn't cheap, but at least it's always there when i need it, unlike NHS waiting rooms where you'll be seen by someone 4 hrs later after you arrived.
If my opinion and "thoughts on FR" upset you then i apologize, but i won't stop posting because
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I really don't think you should be part of this discussion
ATS - you're telling the truth as you see it. Others see it differently. That's the nature of debate - and I for one welcome your input regardless of what side of the door you work on.
However, the VLC case is interesting because it happened because of a couple of egos at the top, without regard to the many lives it disrupted for both flight and cabin crews. Without a union, these things can happen more easily with little comeback from the crews. You would just have to suck it up, do what the company wanted at your expense or leave. Which is exactly what happened.
Some people will say that's just the natre of business - but it really is not. Sure commercial decisions sometimes dictate base closures, but in other walks of life the employees would be protected and catered for in their move.
I support the union, not because I think it will be easy - in fact, management have made it perfectly clear it won't be easy. But I believe in fairer rights for all employees - and without a union I do not see that happening.
So let's be clear about this - if Ryanair is threatening to sack people if they are forced into recognising unions such as BALPA, it'll all be BALPA's fault?
Are you employed by BALPA? No, you're employed by Ryanair, so BALPA cannot sack you. If you're sacked, it's down to Ryanair, nobody else.
And given that most airlines seem to rub along with union representation, which do you think is the most likely explanation:
1. Recognition of BALPA or any other union would so adversely affect Ryanair's business that they would have no alternative but to dismiss lots of staff, and Ryanair's utterances are simply a statement of fact; or
2. The threat is simply the latest in a long line of egregious bullying and harassment by Ryanair management to intimidate their staff into submission.
If you require more information you could always various Irish courts as to their opinions of Ryanair management.
Thank you for your very kind reply Vexed and i too respect the truth as you see it. It's nice when you can have a debate with someone who doesn't tell you to get off the thread because you don't "belong" here.
I totally agree that maybe, at some point, the company should be unionized. But not now, not by BALPA. In my view, BALPA will take your money and do bugger all when you need help, should you ever need it.
I read their T&C's and in very, VERY small print it says that they will only represent you if they think you can win the case. They won't even try to fight your corner.
If you want legal protection, at way lower cost than BALPA's, there are other places you could get it from. But then again it's all down to people's views on things and what they think it's best for them.
Ozymandias, with all due respect, are you a BALPA member? Do you still have the membership booklet they sent along with your membership card? Have a read through that and then tell me i'm (and so many other people are) wrong.
Last edited by Abusing_the_sky : 1st July 2009 at 23:09.
Reason: just read Ozymandias post
I read their T&C's and in very, VERY small print it says that they will only represent you if they think you can win the case. They won't even try to fight your corner.
ATS that's being a bit unfair to Balpa as it implies that on any issue unless they think they will win they won't bother. I can tell you from personal experience that it is simplifying matters to your own end. If it is a matter say of going to court then no organisation including the CPS will carry on unless there is a realistic prospect of winning, ask someone in the Police about that. If you think that a legal protection insurance company is going to fight your corner on say a 25% chance of winning when your premiums are as low as you allude to then you are mistaken. What also seems to get lost in all of this is that Balpa is not some big brother anonymous entity but it is what the members make it. It is run by its members who should steer its policy as long as there are people who are willing to take on that role and not just hide away.
Last edited by tocamak : 2nd July 2009 at 00:34.
Reason: spelling
Someone please tell me who asked BALPA to get involved? I have said it before on this site (and have been accused of being management for it) and I will repeat it: the vast majority of my colleagues are happy in their jobs. Yes, T's & C's are changing and pay is being reduced but they are elsewhere too.
I'll repeat it again actually, we're happy in our jobs at Ryanair.
We, as Ryanair pilots, have a very secure job. Sorry, I meant HAD a very secure job, until BALPA came along. Now there's no command upgrades for FO's. Now there's a base freeze. Brilliant.
MOL has said all along that even if this goes through he wont do anything BALPA want and he doesn't have to, all he has to do is listen. He'll listen to them say "please re-open stansted, luton, east midlands, bristol......." "any chance you could give the pilots back 5/4 they really liked that"
So what am I going to do as a Ryanair pilot? I'm going to vote no and hope that BALPA don't get in. Then I'm going to hope that they reverse the base freeze and command upgrade decisions.
Still no-one has commented to say how BALPA are going to change my life for the better and as far as I can see they wont.
Our Chief Exec. is an arsehole but I believe it when he makes threats. He has proven time and time again that he will cut off his nose to spite his face and if that means closing down UK bases and putting us all on 5/2 then I believe he'll do that.
If you think that Ryanair pilots are just being fat and dumb that's fine, but I can assure that happy should be added to that list. Just stop trying to get involved.
P.S. Captain J*** L***** and Terry - if you want to have a playground fight feel free to do so, just don't do it in my effing inbox.
Captain J*** L***** and Terry - if you want to have a playground fight feel free to do so, just don't do it in my effing inbox
I get the same emails as you: where should the issue be ventilated? Here, or in house?
Strikes me that the responses have been quite subdued when you consider that the BALPA email was quite scurrilous.
You behave like a nimby: let everyone else do the work and you'll take the benefit. If you don't want BALPA vote against it, you have the email address like the rest of us. Don't just mouth off about it here.
You behave like a nimby: let everyone else do the work and you'll take the benefit.
What benefit?
That wasn't rhetorical by the way, I genuinely want to know what benefits there are and that can be told to me on repaweb.
It's clear what the problems will be.
I keep hearing "if you don't do something about it now your t's & c's will continue to be reduced" - but again, I genuinely want to know what will be done to prevent this. As far as I am aware, as I previously said, MOL doesn't need to take any action BALPA request, he just has to attend meetings. So how is that going to make an ounce of difference?
Those who are telling us to act - please answer the above. I don't mean that in any confrontational way, and I apologise if my previous post was interpreted in that manner (just finished lates and missed a bbq, pissed off already), I just want an answer.
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I get the same emails as you: where should the issue be ventilated? Here, or in house?
My point was that I don't want these emails. If I want advice I will ask for it from my peers, which I have done.
I don't want to see:
1. emails from people who I haven't given my address to
2. text messages from people who I haven't given my phone number to
3. mol's, pb's, dob's etc immature propoganda memos and posters
4. bgy as my base on next months roster
"...[sic]... Following a meeting earlier today in Dublin, if Balpa are recognised at Luton. Luton as a base WILL close. (i repeat - LTN WILL CLOSE) Luton pilots WILL NOT be offered a position at another bases.
Any other UK base gaining recognition will result in the same outcome.
The following will apply elsewhere if Balpa recognition gained:
1) 5/2 6/3 roster
2) Base transfer freeze and no CU courses.
3) Loss of allowances...."
***LUTON PILOTS*** to ensure we still have a job please sign the proposal for pilots AGAINST Balpa recognition which is next to the whiteboard, LOEPS...etc. This is very serious - this is your livelihood we are talking about now.
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