Terms and EndearmentThe forum the beancounters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work. Let others in the industry make educated choices on where the grass is less brown! Scheduled, charter or contract -
A handful of BALPA members could therefore force their opinions and beliefs on the majority of us: that is not, I submit, democratic”.
As I've said before, simply replace "BALPA" with "ERC" and then read the above statement again.
See what I mean ? (Unpaid leave, changes to the A/L system)
People are saying NOW is not the time. If the vote is negative and BALPA are locked out for another 3 years, what do you think is going to happen in the meantime ?
BALPA want's secure long term employment for it's members, the current campaign is about "Dignity and Respect" and trying to ensure that the pilots in Ryanair are represented by a voice that's heard and genuinely represents the views and wishes of the pilots. They realise that times are tough within the aviation industry and I have seen nothing in any communication that states they are going to seek an immediate pay rise upon election.
The current ERC system does not work !!! Whilst there are some individuals at some bases trying to do a good job on behalf of the pilots, many are not and I would even go so far as to say some are corrupt.
A Captain at an non UK base, is currently facing disciplinary action and embroiled in a court action with the company (for the second time in his career) for the simple act of trying to organise a replacement ballot for the ERC members at his base !
Is this "democratic" ? I think not ! We are not living in some banana republic !!!
Would somebody like to enlighten us on the outside. ?
Are we talking ALL Ryanair pilots which include the Brookfield guys and girls to be represented by BALPA. ?
Or The Ryanair contracted pilots only.
Yourvoteyourchoice.
What are you on, or did you just get back from the pub before you wrote that totally confusing post. (Do you have level 4 English or ever preview what you have written)
If you want to get your message across K.I.S.S. works for most of us.
50%+1 is all you need Yes, but will the voting body include ALL the pilots based at EMA, or again just the RYR contracted pilots who of course have more to loose and will be in the majority BALPA members.
The problem that you have here is simple, BALPA cannot represent the Brookfield pilots even if they are members.
And to omit them from any vote is undemocratic.
Daydreamer Our deepest apologies for spelling out facts to EMA pilots. It is written for them, they received a very long email with a blatant mistruth at its centre. unfortuantely we don't hold a level 4 in the art of bull***ting. We believe in democracy.
As for the Brookfield question, interesting one, as the whole situation was created by Ryanair and is used by them to manipulate contracts, people and scenarios. Not unlike a management stance though, to blame BALPA for the deliberate division and exploitation they created. Of course it is preferential to be all inclusive. Many on Brookfield want Ryanair contracts others don't. There will be intensive negotiations at the CAC of whom and what may constitute a bargaining unit. and those results will then be published for all to see and for others to comment on. Things which are not going to be expressed today in a public forum. All Brookfielders who want to be Ryanair and are Brookfield against their choice should be given that option. Wether the nice fluffy and caring management in Ryanair allow it or will continue to use people against one another is a question you should put to them.
Just for you Daydreamer, even though I guess you are not EMA based. I have edited the previous post and put into bold all of captain * remarks on which comment was made and an email was sent to EMA pilots last night, stating the obvious mistruth, and making the case for all to have the ability to exercise their democratic right to choose their own path and not have yours or Captain *'s misleading statements, imposed upon them.
If you don't want it, don't vote for it, but make sure you get to vote on it.
Really Daydreamer, I do hope they pay you well!, Do you ever sleep, are you human! Are you the stig?
You seem to be one of the first to reply to all things Ryanair. Hate to think you are just sat there all day and and night just to waiting for someone to write so you can add you anti union stance.
Go Make MugaBellew a cup of tea, tell him how you think you're progressing, maybe the needs a shoulder massage from all his typing and then go stretch your legs .
We will fight for all, and we want all to have a democratic choice, but we will also be bull**it busters, and need to point out where people are being mis-informed.
yourvoteyourvoice - very good posts.A complete contast to the anti union rhetoric posted on here by those who wish to keep others down while they are well taken care of by ryanair to spout their misinformed and misleading union busting rubbish(or ANTI BRITISH posts in the case of Leo Hairy Camel).The simple facts are that ryanair pilots whatever colour,creed or contract are getting poorer and poorer,in real terms in stark contrast to other companies while being treated like absolute slaves,in the pursuit of profit.The ryanair management stooges and misinformed cabin crew who post on here can plead that this is not the right time or offer up any other excuses,along with some posting here who are undoubtedly management plants,wish to see the status quo maintained to the continued detriment of ryanair pilots livelihoods.
The fact is that all that stands between ryanair management slashing terms and conditions much further has always been and is now the threat of union recognition,should recognition vote fail through apathy or ignorance.This will lead to this protection being lost for 3 years during which time ryanair management will rape at will and the pilots in ryanair have no where to go.so to say that it is someone elses problem is no longer good enough.this is a ryanair pilot problem of which they hold the solution.use it or you will pay well for not!!
So guys, tell me, if Balpa get in and Ryanair close down all UK bases, 5/2 roster and send us abroad how will you feel then?
Will you stand by the crew room door and say to all those CCMs and engineers who loose their jobs that Balpa is the way forward?
Will you still stand by Balpa and say how much "good" they've done then?
What about when Balpa and FR meet for "negotiations" -
Balpa "pilots want their 5/4 roster back"
Ryanair "No"
What can Balpa do then - organise a strike? Great - even more job losses.
Ryanair do not have to do anything they dont want to do.
If balpa are NOT elected in, for the next 3 years things will certainly be better than if they were!
Bilderberger - on what basis are those assumptions made,because mol has said so?well then you are a bigger idiot than he is to believe them.But then is suppose there is no need to have a scrap of integrity or even use your own ideas as long as you are home every night.
No commandb - if ryanair have a 3 year union recognition ban,you will be raped even harder as was the case the last time around.But i suppose 3 years may be a career for some.
The simple facts are that ryanair pilots whatever colour,creed or contract are getting poorer and poorer,in real terms in stark contrast to other companies
Please advise which carriers are increasing payscales or T&C's for pilots right now.
I would still like someone from BALPA or a BALPA hardliner to spell out exactly what the benefits will be?
Not tree hugging "improvements to the T & C's" but some definitive and tangible declaration of how our lives will be better.
Incidentally the "blatant mistruth" in the email I got is actually in the Employment Act:
Quote:
4) Within the acceptance period the CAC must decide, with regard to each relevant application, whether the 10 per cent test is satisfied.
(5) The 10 per cent test is satisfied if members of the union (or unions) constitute at least 10 per cent of the workers constituting the relevant bargaining unit.
(6) The acceptance period is—
(a) the period of 10 working days starting with the day after that on which the CAC receives the last relevant application, or
(b) such longer period (so starting) as the CAC may specify to the parties by notice containing reasons for the extension.
(7) If the CAC decides that—
(a) the 10 per cent test is satisfied with regard to more than one of the relevant applications, or
(b) the 10 per cent test is satisfied with regard to none of the relevant applications,
the CAC must not accept any of the relevant applications.
(8) If the CAC decides that the 10 per cent test is satisfied with regard to one only of the relevant applications the CAC—
(a) must proceed under paragraph 15 with regard to that application, and
(b) must not accept any of the other relevant applications.
But then I guess that's just more BALPA bullsh1t
Last edited by The Real Slim Shady : 1st July 2009 at 13:15.
Reason: Spelling
Abusing the Sky - We are talking about the long term careers of pilots. And you are CC, no disrespect to you as your partner is a pilot. But your career and training is not that of a pilot and as such sarcastic comments, probably born out of your partners opinion and your own vested interests are not welcome. I would never try and involve myself in your career. It is not for you to decide the careers of other pilots, or to rush to judgements. but it is for your partner, who has valid concerns and questions and if you support his opinion as a pilot, then that is fair enough. I appreciate, that if things don't go his way that impacts you. Just as all decisions will affect other crews with partners/families & ties. It is for each pilot to weigh up the facts and make their own judgement, and then decide in their own career interest, and for what they perceive is either the best long term (if thats your view) or short term (if thats your view). but rest assured the majority will decide. As for the food, now where did you get that info, your fella, maybe they should buy it in Romania rather than Boots, surely that would save a few leu & bani ??
bilderberger - can you give me some examples of those prior action in closing pilot bases and moving pilot jobs abroad due to pilot unions that ryanair have perpetrated?curious.
I have to be honest, while it does appear that perhaps in a viable climate there might be perhaps be an argument for some form of unionisation in fr, is it really worth it?
Would the benefits really out way the suffering along the way?
I mean this in the nicest way, but all you old boys out there who still hold onto the romance that is aviation - wake up times have changed. When you have an FNG who is prepared to fork out 40k for a job and then earn SFA, what chance do we have.
Face it 'bare faced terry', you need the fr pilots more than they need you. The low cost army is the future, while B***** All is dead in the water.
I mean this be a constructive post and not a rant at other peoples expense.
Times have changed and so has the industry. The dignity and respect is not what those pilgrims of fallen companies might once have strived for. May I suggest that in the present economic climate, a job fulfils the dignity prerequisite and the respect is being able to put food on your families table!
Now is not the time to fight for terms and conditions, now is the time to pull together and thus safe guard our jobs.
The boss's at fr do what they do, and they do it well. The fact is that we forced them into the UK base freeze, and thus we are costing the company money.
So Balpa, go away, become an attractive proposition, and if you still exist in a few years, come back at a more appropriate time!
Why is it not a good time for to have representation from BALPA ??????
Presently our jobs are hanging by a very fragile thread, and at the whim of bad managerial decisions. Any job losses will be down to the pig headed decision made in the White House. Peoples lives have already been turned upside down, caught in the middle of the battle between the Government over increased taxes.
Uk bases have already been frozen with the threat of closures.
Can the current CEO afford to take on a United Pilot Group. Can he afford to be seen to lose another Half Billion Plus. Maybe his luck has run out and it's time for a fresh change for Ryanair.
what continues to slay me is this perception of "management bad decisions". you do not know, unless you are party to the decision making process what is a bad decision and what is not.
One specific person may consider something to be a "bad decision" however that is merely speculation unless you have all the facts and contributing factors of the process to hand.
Either way, an air carrier is NOT a democracy or an embodiment of of socialism, IT IS A BUSINESS, it is there to generate revenue, to generate income for the shareholders.
If you want to make management decisions, start your own airline, take the risk yourself, the regulatory bodies wont stop you if you meet all the criteria, heck, they'll HELP YOU!
Then lets see how you respond to a socialist stance in your operation and quotes of " pilots whatever colour,creed or contract are getting poorer and poorer,in real terms in stark contrast to other companies" when the vast majority of operations are in a very precarious position and laying off crews.
It's worth pilots in good airlines reading these Ryanair threads just to make them appreciate their own airline more.
Still, I suppose it's a bad day when your only consolation is "At least we don't work for Ryanair" It's like saying "At least we didn't crash" or "At least we don't have the ebola virus"
I'm amazed pilots who work so hard to become qualified pilots accept being treated so poorly. I can't imagine when you started training you thought that this is what you aspired to.
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