powdermonkey

Mmmm apparently, FR have suspended/delayed TR courses certainly from Nov 09 onwards until April/May of next year, and have told candidates they will have to do another sim check! What gives? Too many recruits to process or interviewed too many for jobs on offer? ahhh will be interesting to see if they charge them for another sim check....Glad I didn't go for it! what a waste of money!

ezydriver

Hundred percent, you know you won't, these characters have made a choice and they cannot change it, they have chosen to lick the greasy management pole fir their own ends so they can get on in ryanair. In doing this they have become hairy camels foot soldiers. The ryanair management style equates to outdated sweatshop slavery and they have aligned themsleves to thar so that they can secure positions as masters in this regime and be the bulliers rather than the bullied. For that reason you will never get his type to admit that pilots at the moment do not have a voice in ryanair and at the very least balpa would give them that voice. Instead they join a campain of intimidation and threats where they believe they are one of the chiefs, it is all so similar to how Hitler ruled Nazi Germany, many Germans wanted to revolt against Hitler but the iron grip the Nazis had over the country meant almost certain suicide for those who opposed him from within. In the end Hitler ruled Germany to the bitter end and look where he took his country. An extreme comparison granted, but slavery is not. If a base is only viable by running it without union input, how anyone can support such an absurd claim is beyond me, hell if we remove human rights then surley anybase could be made viable, but where do pilots draw the line? Where would hairy **** face and co draw the line? If balpa are not recognised then it is due to a campaign of threats intimidation and bullying, if I were an fo having to share a flight deck with any if these henchmen I don't know if the duty could be completed in a safe crm environment. This is truley one of the low points for both ryanair and our profession as a whole. I hope MOL's body fluids are keeping his henchmen who post here warm at night, because I don't know how they can live with themselves, truley astonishing that such 3rd world management is permitted to thrive on your backs today.

Best of luck to the ryanair guys, it can only get worse for you now, and i' m sure they will post that getting worse means bases staying open and jobs saved etc etc, fine let them believe that if they like the more enlightened of us know what it really means!

Vexed

I'm a bit confused over these people saying a ballot has been taken, because there certainly hasn't been one where I am - at least I haven't been asked!

As far as I can make out, the "ballots" that have just been made at some smaller bases are being done by certain individuals emailing or texting other pilots in the base for a yes/no answer - which isn't quite what I'd call a ballot. I'd call it polling (no pun intended). Now, the poll might indicate the base doesn't want recognition, but with your identity not being secret, the poll's integrity might not be as strong as some make out.

The only true vote will be via the real ballot - which WILL protect your identity and assure you are free to vote without the company/individuals intimidating you.

intimidatedpilot

powdermonkey

They probably were recruiting in the event of base closure and sacking of current employees. But they are falling on their shoddy ars*holes now, so may not need those in the pool for three years now. Far cheaper to keep to current slim (dim) ones.

al446

@ vexed, The 'ballot' RSS refers to has no legal standing AFAIK. The ballot for recognition must be simultaneous across the UK and run under the auspices of an independent organisation such as the Electoral Reform Society, this would normally happen via a mailout to all registered BALPA members within the company. I believe that either side may enclose a short statement supporting their case within the mail shot. All votes will be counted immediately following closure of the deadline by that independent body and it shall be a secret ballot therefor it will be impossible to determine the REAL strength of feeling at an individual base. It is up to each individual as to whether they wish to disclose how they voted and I suspect that those that do may not be telling the truth in order that back stabbers and company spivs do not grass them up. Nor would I rule out the opposite type of lie ie anti BALPA snake actually voting for because they can see the way the wind blows.
As another poster has said, the results that RSS is wallowing in are null and void and may be hugely skewed from the actual eventual outcome.
As a union person myself (Unison steward, RSS is sure to jump on that one) I hope RSS gets to write the statement for FR's anti stance, should be better than the Beano.

Day_Dreamer

Again we have forgotten the BRK pilots.
They are part of any base and should be given the right to decide the destiny of their base, and their careers.
Without their support any vote concerning recognition at a specific base could be challenged in the UK legal system.

The future of Base by Base representation is currently at a low ebb as those who have made their voices known have rejected BALPA representation leaving the others (Bases) who may vote in favour at greater risk of being closed and the workers being made surplus to requirements.

Tooloose

I'm sorry. I don't understand your point. Please say again slowly.

ArthurBorges

You're mixing and matching content to suit your flavour of the day: be my guest.

Your dictionary and mine agree.

I do have this feeling this thread is suffering professionally qualified levels of poisoning in a bid to mess up social networking.

I maintain that there are multiple stakeholders in your teacup squabble: it is not just employees vs. management, but users and airport vicinity residents as well.

I further maintain that quadrilogue (which may not be in your dictionary, Sir) can be as constructive as the spirit of its participants: win/win/win/win is definitely among the range of possible outcomes, if the airline's public relations people have enough imagination to suggest positive advertising spin-off.

I am basically SLF.

I would love to earn one more soft spot for one more airline.

So can we call off this little psyop?

al446

@ Day Dreamer - As I indicated in my post, the vote will be amongst BALPA members so I would have thought the answer to you would be to join BALPA. In my place of work we have people who work via agency, analagous to your situation I think, and I will always treat them as equals and represent them if they are Unison members. However you are also self-employed, if I understand things corrrectly, which means that your one man band company (that is what it is) is operating according to the T&Cs negotiated between your company and RYR, I am afraid that is the downside of the tax advantages you have as a 'company'.

@ ArthurBorges - What are you talking about? And location = China? Trolls in sight?

The Real Slim Shady

And there, al446, lies the rub.

The rest of you can whistle or join the shabby little outfit.

That is why The Real Slim Shady stood up: your feeble reliance on BALPA members ignores everyone else.

Vote No, retain your dignity and respect - and 1% of your salary

There is no such thing as a free lunch.....unless you work for BALPA

many a time and oft
In the Rialto you have rated me
About my moneys and my usances:
Still have I borne it with a patient shrug,
For sufferance is the badge of all our tribe.
You call me misbeliever, cut-throat dog

Recognise it?

al446

Nope, I don't recognise it and now you will probably call me an ignorant charlatan. I tend to spend more time reading relevant legislation, it can be helpful in assisting members. You should try it sometime as you seem to be having some difficulty in understanding the law regarding TU recognition.

There is no provision in law for a company wide, all inclusive vote as to whether a TU should be recognised or not, that is in the hands of members of the relevant union. Should you wish to pay your 1% and participate in order to vote no then go ahead, I am sure MOL will gladly reimburse you. I am not aware of BALPA's rule book but would have thought that, given your very public stance on this matter you may find that there is provision for them to legally refuse your application.

I will leave it to your pro-BALPA colleagues to discuss dignity and respect with you.

HundredPercentPlease

RSS,

It's not 1% - please get your facts right. The tax relief makes is less.

You said to me:

You then said:

So I rose to your request here.

Do you have the balls to answer or not? The fact you have been on and posted without answer is making you look a little scared of reasoned debate. As well as spherically challenged.

TheOtherGuy

The whippings will continue until morale improves...

Day_Dreamer

al446
You are talking a load of cobblers !!!!
First I do not work for RYR or BRK.
Second the company I do work for is about to hold a vote for BALPA recognition which will include ALL our pilots regardless of their affiliation to BALPA or not.
Now if one company can do that then it would be easy in RYR.
However BALPA do not want that vote to happen just in case they are out voted, which is the same in RYR.

Anyone promoting such a restrictive practice (BALPA members only) is usually trying to ensure a vote in their favour, by excluding a large proportion of the workforce.

In the past I have worked for BALPA companies and once served a term upon a company council.
I am now no longer a member, having seen the real way that they operate and the self interest shown by the council members.

Most people think that BALPA will help the workforce by some black art just by chanting the word "BALPA" this is not the case.
Representation will achieve little or nothing through a confrontational management, and any benefits obtained will take longer than some members will care to wait.

BALPA are looking for scalps to add to their totum pole and more money in their coffers, as they are a business and need to show profit like any other company.
The few BALPA have helped are far out numbered by those they have let down.

al446

In certain circumstances your charge of cobblers may hold up, if that is so I will be first to acknowledge such. I certainly was not trying to maliciously influence the debate, if that is what you can call the bun fight I have been viewing over the past couple of weeks or so. As I state in other posts, I am not a pilot and no longer work in aviation, haven't done so for many years, but I do get a might teed off when I see horror stories or wild speculation such as I have seen from the likes of RSS, especially when I have seen the way unions work proactively with employers to ensure longevity of the company and their members' jobs.
If 50% of the pilot group were union members then a ballot would be held however if you have a look at Statutory right to union recognitionyou will see that the situation is more complicated. I accept that in certain circumstances all pilots who are employees would take part in the ballot, the nature of the contract between RYR and BRK pilots would have to be determined as they appear to be independent contractors who may be gone the next day with no recompense, perhaps even more reason for them to join a union. If they cannot be shown to be direct employees then they would have no part in the ballot. I emphasise, I have no idea of the true situation within RYR but that is greatly due to the distorted postings of the pro management peeps on here.
The main thrust of my previous post was to say to RSS that his much vaunted 'ballot' held at EMA etc was cobblers, toss, hot air. It has as much validity in law as the anal expulsions of MOL.
Please do not misunderstand me, I fly no flag for BALPA, I haven't since I knew that it had once been headed by that animated skull, Norman Tebbit. I think that pilots would be better represented by a larger union such as Unite but most of the right wingers (if PPRuNe is anything to go by) would rather take a pay cut or be boiled in oil before getting into bed with a load of lefties. Nor do I hold RYR in any great esteem, their fruit machine business model stinks.
Finally, any talk of bases being closed because MOL has thrown the teddy out of the pram should be taken with a pinch (cellar) of salt. Mr avaricous, and which CEO is not?, would be strung up by the dangly bits then spit roasted by his shareholders should he close profitable bases. Remeber the boast of RYR is that it is UK's largest airline, I think that would melt away if he closed UK bases.
Awaiting incoming.

The Real Slim Shady

Here we go then al446, cop this for "wild speculation".

10% of the unit are union members - excludes huge numbers of pilots - but that, of course, suits BALPA.

Then if 50% + 1 of the pilots are members of the union, even if they don't want recognition, the CAC can award recognition; hardly democratic.

Then your ballot is not a foregone conclusion either, not the IF qualification.

The if it does decide a ballot is in order recognition can be declared with with 40% of the union members respond and they get a majority.

All this talks about union members, not workers.

That isn't wild speculation or a horror story: it is from the website you linked to.

As day dreamer said, BALPA want a vote among the union members, not the workers which is why more and more of the bases are having their own ballots and telling BALPA HQ to withdraw the application.

100 per cent, I still haven't had an answer to my questions from either you or BALPA HQ: cut out the flannel about dignity and respect, tell the FR pilots precisely what the improvements will be and when.

We don't need the easyJet roster; ours is better. We don't need your staff travel, ours is better. We don't need crew food, it's rubbish anyway. We have a pension scheme, we get paid for car parking, medicals, loss of licence, uniform so we don't need that.

Aldente

From The Real Slim Shady"

Well Slim, as a Captain (15 years plus),I pay less than £39 per month (before tax !), don't tell me you believe the £1000 quoted by the company in DOB and EW's rhetoric .......


You're so gullible ......

Tinytim

HPP

I used to believe all that rubbish about how Balpa was there to look after its members.

It took me three years on our company council to realise that belief was a complete and utter delusion.

As I have posted before Balpa does not have the resources to deliver on promise and is only interested in headline (thus revenue) grabbing opportunities or BA CC who (despite the strident denials) still mostly control Balpas agenda.

Balpa is only as good as the support you get from the vast majority of your pilot workforce. You havent a cats chance in hell of effective collective representation through Balpa even in the unlikely event you got recognition.
The reason is that, at best, there would always be a substantial number who would toe the company line and elevate two (richly deserved) digits to Balpa.

al446

OK, let's take it line by line

Not exactly favouring BALPA unless, of course, you have not been as persuasive as you think.

Seems fair enough to me. You wouldn't be myopic would you? Or maybe you were confused when you wrote.

Once again, seems fair enough. I didn't draw this law up and it was hardly designed by the TUC but it is what we've got. Let's do the maths.
40% of the unit means 50% on a turnout of 80%, a level that is seen only in emerging democracies, eg first full participation vote in SA, or repressive states like Zimbabwe. I would say that that is a pretty high hurdle to jump but you seem to want to set the bar higher. As I have said in an earlier post, I do not think that BRK pilots would be included, they either contract for themselves or a company other RYR. Take legal advice, I've given you the link, they are good, I've used them.

Wrong, it talks about bargaining units. That is RYR contracted pilots but I am always willing to correct my stance if your legal eagle tells you absolutely that BRK guys should be included. It would appear to me from your postings that you wish to have a bargaining unit of 1, you. Otherwise everyone, so why not drag the contract cleaners into this?

Under whose auspices are these ballots carried out? Can it be shown that undue pressure has not been exerted? It seems about as valid as witchcraft but a bit more dangerous.

If you had used the eyedrops and read my post properly you would know my stance re BALPA and, if you read my previous posts in other forums you will observe that I have consistently said that I do not work in aviation and am a Unison steward, BALPA central have never contacted me. If the vote goes for recognition then it is up to FR pilots to organise within that union, elect spokespeople and promulgate their manifesto, have it approved by the members and then put it to management. I dont know of any union who has gone into a workplace with a manifesto in place, as said, that is in the hands of the organisation you put in place. I use'you' loosely.

So we are back to the bargaining unit of 1 - you. Do all the pilots echo your view? Oh, I forgot, you had a 'ballot'.

Keep on speculating.

T668BFJ

Ok a lot of people talking complete crap here.

If there is a recognition vote initiated by the CAC, it will encompass 100% of the employees at the bases concerned. Nothing to do with BALPA membership or otherewise.

BALPA provide supporting evidence to the CAC which remains totally confidential.
RYR are forced by law to provide a complete employee list, RYR and BRK at the bases, every single one of these people will then be ballotted by the CAC.

Its not complex its not rocket science and since the invention of the CAC its how its always worked.