The Real Slim Shady

Oh dear alibaba.

You really are a sad, pathetic, one track, blinkered little lemming racing headlong after your BALPA heroes to the cliff edge: lucky for you I'm sufficiently magnanimous in victory to provide you with a safety net.

No one is scared of BALPA: we, the cogent majority, simply want nothing to do with them. The company isn't "terrified" of unions as I explained in an earlier post.

There is no place for BALPA or it's culture of self indulgence in Ryanair: now if you don't like that you have the option to vote with your feet and let those of us who are quite happy get on with our jobs and our lives.

Now, I have explained about the 10% test and the applicability of that test ( union members - not workers) and that the CAC may, but doesn't have to - read the qualifying conditions - order a ballot.

So if the CAC decide that they don't want to order a ballot, for whatever reason they may have, the 10% test has been passed and recognition can be awarded if the majority of workers belong to the union. Which is why people are resigning from the union!

50%+1 of the workers are union members and whether they want recognition or not.......they get it, without a ballot, just because of the 10% test.

And before you say that all BALPA members want recognition, that is not the case.

FRpilot

Bullshit!

We don't want a PENSION? we don't want a SOCIAL PROTECTION?

come on... what is that!!!


Bullshit again!!! Mirage!!!
Take your money you get, substract money for pension, for health insurance, hotel to the sim, Months off, etc...

What do you have at the end, less than a lot of normal Airline, you are just magnify by figures you get on your bank account...

How much money do you get if you are sick and bed blocked for 5 months? (Did you ever think about that).

Does your job is so secure???(with Ryanair??? )
I don't think so, you are just a Dreamer!

FRying

Ballsout, your statements are misleading and do not reflect reality. You are MOL or very close.

Some people here speak as if they were pilots. They're just MOL's team pretending they're so happy in marvel land. What a farce !

Ryanair pilots, please, don't let this down. Whatever your nationality, whatever your base. You're entitled to respect, not bully. The game Ryanair's management is playing is disgusting.

UK Viking

FRpilot, according my contract I can be sick up to 6 months and still have my basic, a lot more than the orange I am told.

FRying, I am certainly not management but I guess I have seen more unions doing more damage than the opposite in the last 25 years than you have and if you can't earth your self enough to see that this is just not the best timing for a Balpa recognition, then go ahead, make it even worse.

Correct, I am afraid of loosing what I already have and I will definately loose it the very same day as a Balpa recognition is a reality and it will take Balpa a very long time just to get that part back if they ever will.

By the way do any of you guys think that Parc, Wynwith, Sigmar etc. pilots can vote for any union recognition in those companies they are contracted with ?

Doesn't Brookfield have pilots in India as well and are they able to vote for a Ryanair Balpa recognition ?

alibaba

Many thanks for your unprofessional psychiatric ARMCHAIR like opinion of me. I will give it as much intellectual input and mental tasking as I needed for the MISREPRESENTED email. I do tough realise I have no business commenting on your mental complexities unlike you on me. Maybe that is a measure of the man?

I will ask the questions again maybe someone would like to answer them? The argument about the email seems to be flipping and changing so much it feels like Shrove Tuesday. No need for a cigar then..

It seems like your genuine compassion and concern for colleagues is or has gone missing?

Victory? With what are you referring to? What guarantee’s can you provide me with in reference to a "safety net" that you or I can't lose our jobs tomorrow in Ryanair no matter what the economic climate apart from trying to court favour with management? Which “safety net” are you inferring to and from whom?

Pot calling kettle black when comparing the stance with reference to a selfish email and very easy to answer: That is what the email is. A huge EGO, a large dose of IGNORANCE and simply GREED.

I have read the statute fully many times, but the CAC has to follow the law as anybody does and so have to follow the procedure if any of the conditions exist to call a ballot. If the ballot does not take place it is because of a substantial majority of WORKERS are MEMBERS of the Union and in being so no need for a ballot. But the telling condition is this So the CAC will have to call a ballot.

It was I who posted the statute in full without BIASED or MISREPRESENTED facts unlike the email or some posts on PPRuNe. So your small minded patronising attacking posts are not needed. I have no desire to treat fellow professionals in such a way as I think the arguments are there to present for themselves on either side which comes down to FEAR.

That would be right if there was a majority but then this criteria would come into effect Now because of your evident strong feelings and the companies strong feelings do you think that this condition is met and in doing so leading to a ballot? It does meet the condition or criteria so leading to a ballot.

So what was the promise for INDIVIDUALS and or EMA from PB, DOB and EW for collusion in such Union Busting practices? I hope you got it in writing for whatever that is worth in Ryanair?

I look forward to you answering these questions around the time the next ice age comes round.

BALPA for PROFESSIONAL REPRESENTATION of UK BASED, MULTI NATIONAL PROFESSIONAL RYANAIR PILOTS or a future working life dictated by armchair solicitors, economists and psychiatrists?

Your choice if your management or your co-workers allow you that free democratic choice?

BALLSOUT

FRying, I am not MOL, I am not anything to do with management. I am simply a Ryanair captain that is very happy with the deal he has now and doesn't want BALPA to bugger things up. If you bothered to look at my profile and posting history you could easily conclude I am a genuine poster!

dannyalliga

I think we should bring the discussion back to basics, there's way too much misleading information circulating and it's very unfair and childish given the seriousness of the subject.
Let's put things straight once for all:

Well at today's exchange rate 90.000 Sterling equals 105.000 euros so: 105.000 divided by 12 months equals 8750.
If it's a gross figure let's subtract 30% tax from it (let's pretend you live in a very tax favourable country with a low tax regime) and we come up with 63.000 sterling or 73.000 euros that equals to 5250STG/6083EUR per month.
To these figures you have to subtract health insurance,private pension, loss of licence, car park, uniform, hotels, meals, transportation just to name the money that needs to be spend just to be able to work.

If it's a net figure you should have made 136.000 EUR gross which is what a BRK floater would make with 950 hours and 30% tax (I whish...).


The other day I spoke with an F/O who had his 13 days allocated when he didn't want them and the month after he got his full month off also unwanted....great for the family if he had one but pretty bad for his finances (BRK contract) because that left him broke for 2 months when F/O's are complaining for low hours/income.
Also pretty bad because his next annual leave is in 8 months.

See the numbers above, making 6000EUR/month as a Captain for 900 hours/year without even a pension scheme isn't really something to be proud of.
Oh the 5/4 system works fine for you?
Why don't you ask most F/O's who are on STBY most of their ON days making ZERO money on BRK contracts that they were forced to sign?
Or why not asking those guys who joined FR for their fantastic 5/4 system just to find themselves in some of the new italian bases with a 5/3?



The management has surely succeeded in the "divide&conquer" techniques given the extremely short sighted and selfish comments some of you are posting here.
This battle is starting in the UK but it's about the whole company and its 33 bases, get a good sleep tonight and try to look a bit further than your noses tomorrow.

fireflybob

The supreme excellence is not to win a hundred victories in a
hundred battles. The supreme excellence is to subdue the armies of your
enemies without even having to fight them.

Lao-Tzu
(BC 600-?, Chinese Philosopher, Founder of Taoism, Author of the "Tao Te Ching")

UK Viking

Dannyalliga, you are mostly talking Brookfield stuff, this thread is about Ryanair imployees and Balpa, if Brookfield guys wants other t&c's, isn't that a matter of getting Brookfield recognized as they put up these problems or even more simply, just don't take a contract with Brookfield, no pilots from Brookfield means Ryanair have to get some from other brookers or even employ direct as a Ryanair pilot, not simple as that but maybe the only problem right now is the amount of pilots and cadets that are willing to take the offer as it is now and by that also accept it.

I am Ryanair and my t&c's are to my satisfaction, I don't need to be recognized by Balpa and loose some of my agreements because some Brookfield pilots have totally other subjects to discuss, we can't negotiate together as we have different t&c's. Personally I think it is quite bad conditions for a young cadet, but he still took the contract with Brookfield and hopefully read the contract and checked out all the t&c's, talked to other Brookfield pilots or checked PPRuNe before he signed ?

Day_Dreamer

Now we have an answer.
BRK Pilots you dont count here is how I read UK Viking.
Yet you are a large part of all UK bases.

BALPA members or not you cannot have a vote and your voice cannot be heard, only RYR contacts matter.

Now we know the truth why should the BRK pilots jobs/ base/lives be put at risk by a militant few who believe that BALPA is the cure for all their ill's.

Any BRK pilot who believes in fairness cannot allow a few IDIOTS to ruin their careers, and have their views ignored.
IF BRK pilots get a chance to vote, their logical answer should be "NO" to BALPA.
Why simply because BALPA can and will do NOTHING for you, and why should you wish for your base to be closed, and all jobs forfeit.

To the BALPA diehards "Think of the Big picture your colleagues and job losses"
As Night changes to Day you can be sure Ryanair management WILL carry out their treat on the first and any subsequent base that votes BALPA in.

Aldente

Quote from The Real Slim Shady


What "outside agency" ?! Have you ever worked in an airline with BALPA recognition ?

BALPA representation at a unionised airline consists of Company Councils, drawn from the ranks of ordinary pilot members from that airline. These members meet with management and negotiate on behalf of the other pilots.

So how would you call that negotiating via an outside agency ? The only difference is that the BALPA CC's would have the backing and resources of a large organisation with access to departments to give them support and guidance on various employment matters.


Can you tell me what resources the ERC's have to draw on ? ..........

The Real Slim Shady

Day Dreamer, that's an interesting slant on things.

My view, and what I have consistently said, is that I believe that the issue is sufficiently profound that it impinges on the livelihoods of all the pilots that the BRK guys should also have a say.

Whether the CAC, if they decide that "in the interests of good industrial relations" hold a ballot and include BRK pilots remains to be seen: BALPA will certainly manipulate the process to their own ends. You only have to look at their response to our rejection of their application to see that.

The pro BALPA lobby can produce nothing to support their assertions that recognition would improve our T & C's or enhance our lives: instead they rely on obtuse personal attacks, misinformation and the blind faith that it won't happen to them. Heroes, led by donkeys.

alibaba is a prime example: he is blinded by a personal dislike of me and my opinion: whilst he believes that he has the right to "interpret" ( his word ) the legislation, and hence is so certain that his interpretation is the only true version that he denies any other opinion, he puffs and preens and achieves absolutely NOTHING. What is fascinating, however, is that he, and the other BALPA hardliners, are being sidetracked by trivia as they have NO valid case to put across.

What they cannot do is to place before the FR pilot community a definitive policy or schedule of "improvements": they cannot deliver a timetable for these "improvements" nor are they, or their masters in BALPA HQ prepared to commit to paying salaries or providing unqualified legal assistance ( in the form of financial aid ) to any pilot who loses his / her job because of this recognition campaign. I know this as I have asked them, again and again to commit themselves to this, and I have asked the BALPA staff, at the highest level, to commit to this, and they have refused.

What's more, the BALPA hardliners are TERRIFIED, a word they love to bandy around about the company and those who don't want recognition, to stand up, stop hiding behind anonymous screen names and take their crusade to the crewrooms.

That is the level of commitment they have to the FR pilots.

This is not a campaign about your terms and conditions: this is not a campaign about your rights under Employment legislation or European Law. This campaign is about BALPA getting a scalp it can wave to the world at the next international bunfight its delegates attend at the members expense.

BALPA simply wants to achieve some recognition, anywhere, at Ryanair to score points, even when they know without reservation that their actions will result in the base that votes for recognition being closed immediately and pilots, cabin crew and engineers losing their jobs.

Ask yourself why they submitted 10 separate recognition applications, 1 for each UK base, rather than a blanket application covering all UK contracted FR pilots; it's a spread bet in the hope of a small victory.

If you want to see the full "benefit" of union membership, have a read at the thread on the Cabin Crew forums about BA: while BASSA fiddles BA burns. Willie Walsh has a holding pool of 1500+ cabin crew waiting to take the jobs of the ones he sacks but BASSA, rather like BALPA, can't see the wood for the trees.

Anyone in FR who votes for recognition is simply running at speed towards the cliff edge: the recession hasn't bottomed and a double, or treble dip is looming over the horizon. Sit tight, keep taking the salary for 15 days work a month, keep picking up the sector pay, accept the payment for car parking, medicals, loss of licence and keep making your contributions to the pension so that the company keeps making theirs.

But above all, retain your dignity and respect: avoid the trip to the dole line.

The Real Slim Shady

Aldente,

I have worked for BALPA airlines and know exactly how their corrupt negotiations, and the advice they base these on works.

Corrupt because the BALPA way is the way of disenfranchising the members, trading their terms and conditions for the "reward" of a TRE /TRI job or management job. The hardliners on this forum have confirmed this is the MO by accusing me of selling my soul a la BALPA in the fight to avoid recognition: something the colleagues who know me, and the FR management, will tell you is completely and utterly false.

BALLSOUT

danny, Yes, all of the things you talk about are with the Brookfield First Officers. I agree, the company have far too many of them, and recruiting more. BALPA can have, and do nothing for them, as they are self employed contractors. I do feel for some of them, but it is a situation they chose to accept when they decided on a shortcut to flying a big new jet.
Overall they still don't do too badly and the majority find a very quick route to their command.
If you must get involved in this debate, please learn the facts first!

Day_Dreamer

What I have just read is almost unbelievable.
That the BRK boys / girls do not count here has been confirmed.

Only the RYR pilots matter is the feeling I get here, and as long as the "I'm alright Jack" brigade are heard the rest of you ALL CC/ Engineeers / Ground Staff and Families can "GO FLY A KITE" and sod the consequences.

I have seen this happen so many time over the last 36 years, by BALPA clones who only consider themselves, and believe that BALPA will be the cure for all their perceived ill's.
I am sorry to say that I was once one of those clones but was able to see the light and work to benefit my colleagues in other ways.

If you can take any advice, put this recognition campaign on "HOLD" until the economic climate improves.

To RYR management, You can't blame a whole base for a few rotten eggs, especially when a large proportion are unable to be heard.

Barden

To any younger Ryanair pilots, who are possibly more likely to be swayed as they haven't been in the industry for that long, be wary about paying too much attention to the anti-BALPA rantings of some of the above posters. If their claims about their employment history are to be believed, they appear to be journeymen, i.e. those who switch from employer to employer. It's my experience that these sort of people tend to take a jaded, sometimes embittered view of unions, usually because they don't have the shared history of employees with longer service records, who see the important work that is done by the union year on year.

Ryanair is likely to be the career airline for most current Ryanair pilots as it's getting so big that there simply won't be the places at other airlines, at least in Europe. Ask yourself this, why aren't terms & conditions at other very large airlines, for example Lufthansa, & British Airways like those at Ryanair. Why don't those airlines employ legions of contractors? Why are their pilots well looked after if they get sick? Will their pilots be less or more wealthy in retirement compared to you? The answer is they are represented by a union. If unions and BALPA in particular was so bad, why would they have them? Go figure!

Good luck to all Ryanair pilots. You have to make a start somewhere if you want to make Ryanair into the airline it could be, i.e. like Southwest.

All those thousands and thousands of DLH, BA & Southwest pilots can't be wrong, surely? Make a start. That start is to vote yes for union recognition.

whatdoesthisbuttondo

I love the way the couple of ryanair stooges on here repeatedly try to suggest BALPA is some kind of sinister bullying organisation. If you could remove three or four posters from this argument, there would be no anti-BALPA support at all.

EVERYONE knows ryanair are a terrible employer, what's wrong with the employees trying to improve their lot? The only way improvement will happen is through BALPA as the company have proved on numerous occasions that they couldn't care less about crew or what the crew think.

If you don't have BALPA, your already industry bottom Ts and Cs will decline even more.

Vexed

Ballsout - learn the facts first.

Here are some facts. Didn't you mention that Captains get £90k gross a year? Well the likes of you and I might get close, but the newest command recruit in my base gets £50k a year basic (incidentally before this BALPA business started), compared to the £59k basic a good collegue of mine got last year.

Meanwhile, new Dublin based Captains are going to see their wages fall to the same level (as indicated by company memo this time) - and they aren't even involved in this BALPA campaign.

As I recall, the ability for new cadets to choose between BRK contracts and a Ryanair contract WAS one of the conditions which BALPA would ask for. I think it must realise the danger posed by a workforce which is turning predominantly contract based; as you quite rightly point out - without the abilty to be represented by BALPA in collective bargaining. The BRK FOs I meet are pretty savvy and I think they can see what is best for them.

I can say for sure - as many do read the posts here - that being left swinging in the wind by a few who are worried about losing their home base is not really a big concern to a lot of them when they are struggling to meet payments and have the threat of losing their jobs constantly with or without a union.

And about the home base. I agree with you guys. It isn't nice being based somewhere which isn't your home. I CAN see where you're coming from. But I have also experienced the constant moving around in the past (at the company's whim and my expense), and it is NOT as nice a life. Some of the posters here seem to have been very lucky by Ryanair and I can see why they would feel threatened by something they think endangers the lifestyle which they are accustomed to - however, it is not the same for a lot of Ryanair pilots out there, who DO feel either mistreated or just plain forgotten about.

There is nothing to say your base won't close for any reason in Ryanair. The VLC case, to put it straight, was over a grant given to Air Nostrum (a local Iberia franchise operation). Ryanair argued it wasn't fair that one airline was favoured over another - if anything Ryanair should get the grant because it provides more foot traffic. I agreed with Ryanair at the time actually, but I didn't like the way they dealt with it. Closing the base without thought to the disruption to the pilots living there. That happened without a union.

Now if they had union protection; if other bases were also unionised saw it happening and said - if you want to close that base, go ahead, but you better compensate the pilots who you move out, or we ground airplanes - the company might have either had a second thought, might have agreed and compensated the few pilots there, or maybe it would decide to close all the bases who took action against them, threatening a revolt from the investors and causing massive disruption to the passengers who would think twice about flying Ryanair again, on top of causing a class action against the company from the unionised bases.

Regardless, as I understand it the two or three predominant posters are at EMA, which is doing pretty well and in my humble opinion, is too important to let go. I do know a few Captains and two FOs there though and they've said they support the campaign, and from the base numbers I reckon that must be fairly close to the 10% who must support the campaign there (from the figures purported on this thread). An amazing coincidence I just happened to know all of them or just a bit of creative accounting going on with the anti-union support numbers? From what I've heard people are saying yes to both in order to have both sides go away and I can't blame them! However, those guys should know that if they say yes to both sides they could eventually be called upon by the CAC to explain why (busting their cover!), so if they plan on supporting the campaign later they should say yes to both and then send an email to the BALPA principle negotiator to tell them they've signed both, that way they stay anonymous to the company.

Last point - why don't pro-recognition supporters say who they are openly? Well, that's quite simple - 1) the eventual ballot will be anonymous, so we really have no need to; and 2) if the company knows who the supporters are it could possibly use any excuse (no matter how lame) to get rid of them. Right now the pilots have no back up from anyone. That's the point in collective bargaining and union representation - to prevent that intimidation from happening!

And last last point - to both sides of the argument - will you PLEASE stop making this stuff personal! I might not be in the minority here when I say if I read ball-size comparing and "my side is the most right" and "you're stupid and your breath smells in the morning" arguments - I just switch off. It really does no good for either side and makes Ryanair look more than a bit pathetic to outsiders!

Lets keep things civil, guys!

leeds 65

I agree that terms and conditions will fall in the future.thats a given,as per usual.since my short time here i have noticed a decline.

TRSS just because you are comfortable with your situation does not mean everyone is in the same boat.Lets say for instance you were an FO about to do a command upgrade.Management would offer you a lower capt salary then previous and change your base to wherever they say.They will prob want to pay you 10% less if the base your sent to was a request.So thats a double whammy in reduction of terms.Is that fair? NO.You would be singing a different tune then,away from your loved EMA and sent to SNN.

I find the management threats and propaganda laughable.I hear from people on the line often that 'they must be scared'.They certainly ARE.Iv heard of dubious management actions at the stn base recently - again another example of illegal behaviour.

Figures of 90K are laughable.A regular capt( non trainer) sometimes earns less then a floating BRK FO ! Im sure ryr contract people want to move to a BRK at this stage.

Day_Dreamer

Stooges !!!
Anyone who knows who I am and there are many who do, will know that I have NO connection with RYR management or Training Departments.
I have met "Ash" and know many of the BRK pilots, but incase anyone considers me a Stooge, I am posting a purely impartial view as to BALPA and its relations with the airlines.
If my views don't meet with the jaundiced outlook of the "BALPA or Bust Brigade" that's just too bad for the you.
After 36+ years in this industry with many of them in BALPA and non BALPA companies, I feel that I have a right to post the facts as I see them, so as to bring some reason to the debate.
Advice is usually only taken if it conforms to the person's views receiving it.
In this case many of you will loose out, especially in the current Economic climate. More will be lost now than if this were to be resurrected in 2-3 years.
There is another UK company with similarities to the RYR - BALPA fight and in that fight it appears that BALPA just want another trophy on their shelves, and a few more 1% subscriptions into the coffers.

For those who post and are not RYR pilots, you may have good industrial relations between BALPA and Management, but this only works if the environment is one of trust, respect and co-operation.
This is obviously not going to happen in RYR.

Unless you include the WHOLE (RYR / BRK) pilot force in any vote it cannot represent the true will of a particular bases or group of bases.
The reason you wont include them is among the BALPA'ites there is a fear of a "NO" vote and 3 more years before you can try again.

Back off now and try again when the economy improves, see where BALPA leads in that time !!!.
Also if T&C's are further eroded or bases closed you can crow that "We were right".