Terms and EndearmentThe forum the beancounters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work. Let others in the industry make educated choices on where the grass is less brown! Scheduled, charter or contract -
Thank you very much for your advice but you may keep it, i don't need it.
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Try and see beyond the end of your noses, I don't entirely disagree with you that now is indeed not the best time to try and enforce some moderation on the rush to the bottom,
You might want to re read my posts my dear and see that's exactly what i'm saying to those selfish ones: it's alright if you get the BALPA recognition you so want, don't care about what's going to happen to the other colleagues, be them CC, engineers and so on.
You don't entirely disagree... at least we're on the same level on something.
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BTW, do the pair of you ever go to work, or does PPRuNing appear on your roster as a SD ( more like SAD but never mind)
If you must know i am in days off and with all due respect, what i do in days off is none of your business.
I don't see you calling alibaba, mr repa, dannyalliga SAD, and they are frequent posters too
Zero, still off topic (or is it?), but to answer your q?, 33K is the amount of the type rating bill, nothing else has been included in that. I have seen the new "contracts" (BRK, the DIY Ltd accounting scam) and it is (of course) less money than last year!
Whilst things are certainly heating up next to the EDF power station at West Burton, I think it's time everyone calmed down a bit.
The thing I can tell you about BLAPA, as an ardent observer of their cack-handed antics over the years, is that when sufficiently motivated, they fight dirty. Very dirty, in fact, as Mr. and Mrs. Shady and myself can tell you with certainly. Threatening emails are just the start of it. Measure that against what the Dim Reaper had to say about BLAPA in his petulant, little-boy-who-didn’t-get-his-own-way posting from the REPA website not so long ago, and one is left with compelling conclusions as to what really motivates their aggressive tactics now. Emphasis is mine.
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all due respect but i have heard this argument,over and over.the truth is nobody knows anything and we are not moving forward,quite the contrary.we continue to lose good guys to other airlines.a lot happening behind the scenes has been going on for a long time now and we are no nearer to putting the most basic of foundations in place.i would love to believe that we are making progress but in the absence of evidence,i have now to assume that we are not going anywhere.when balpa promise me a recognition campaign and continue to take my money.i would be a fool to continue to believe that they will ever do any proactive.sitting in an office does not cut it for me anymore.when the balpa moderator reads this,let he be under no illusion,i will lead a mass resignation from balpa in the coming months.they are simply not doing anywhere near enough.before i hear about calling them or visiting their office.it has all been done to no avail.they are the ones who should be calling us.balpa like ryanair may assume we are fools,that will cost them!!!
The above quoted post by the Dim Reaper demonstrates that BLAPA was getting right up his nostril because, shockingly, they were taking his money and not doing anything for it. How dreadful! How unheard of! How BLAPA.
As regular readers will no doubt know, Dim Reaper is not the sharpest tool in the Ryanair shed, but a tool nonetheless. He's prone to bouts of delightfully unrestrained grumpiness, and is possessed of the sort of charm and wit usually found in dockside pubs around midnight. Nevertheless, he does provide a useful lightning rod with which to test the mettle of BLAPA.
Nowadays, of course, BLAPA have been thrust into action, but not because they give a fiddlers about the Dim Reaper, or any other Ryanair pilot for that matter, but rather, because they're broke as a badger and desperately need the funds of Ryanair pilot memberships in order to survive. Hence the stony silence that came with the suggestion that they should represent us for free as a special joining bonus for new members. Heck, even I would sign up for that deal.
Some folks think it reasonable to conclude that BLAPA will support you if ever you get into strife professionally. Demonstrably wrong, I'm afraid, and documented to the heavens too. BLAPA cast a cold eye over each case on its merits whenever some miscreant pilot comes crying to them, and will only fight the fights that satisfy their selection criteria. First, that they have a better than two thirds chance of winning, and second, that the win will provide them with the maximum limelight possible thereby achieving, thirdly, an increase their revenues. Ask an ex-Danair pilot what they think of BLAPA, or a GSS first officer, or find out just why it is that Slim and I are so vocal in our opposition to this devious, cancerous organization of malicious dimwits, and you will quickly learn, as we have, that BLAPA are all dick and no trouser.
Other folk may have swallowed the bullshit that their lives lack dignity and respect, and who wouldn't want that, right? The trouble is that BLAPA don't own the exclusive distribution rights to those particular commodities. Dignity and Respect come from within. For those that think you lack it, take a close look in the mirror. You'll find it there soon enough.
On June 23rd, ten(!) identical letters from the head Scotsman of BLAPA were received at our London office. In our reply, the head of the personnel section accurately recorded the rather telling observation that BLAPA spend much more on Montrachet and Lobster dinners for their own henchmen, than they do on fighting the legal battles of pilots they're supposed to represent, whenever they get into trouble. When you crunch the numbers, this means that BLAPA are at least 2.49 times more interested in using your membership fees to fund their champagne socialist lifestyles and final salary pension scheme, than they are in supporting the pilots they claim to represent! Value for money you think? I don’t.
Moreover, I can assure you, dear colleagues, that the battle lines if drawn, will have terrible consequences. This is not a threat, as BLAPA would have you believe, but rather, I know full well the nature of the dog we have in the fight, and can assure you that he will take no prisoners in demonstrating the strength of his will and the depth of his resolve in this matter.
Say, for the sake of argument, that one of the 'L' bases in the UK were to be closed as a business decision. Not an unlikely scenario in the current economic climate, especially as winter draws near, and a winter like no other before it. Say, hypothetically, that all the permanent employees in those bases were to become surplus to requirements and discharged. Pilots, flight attendants, engineers, ground staff, handling agents and all. Routes would still be served at those bases, but hundreds of pilots would be on the dole queue with no other airlines recruiting.
The BLAPA apologists would have you believe this is a price worth paying in the long run, and that a little pain is worthwhile in the broader scheme of things. They will salute you for your courage in taking a bullet for the regiment, they will praise your bravery on high for standing up to the tyrant Mandrake of Mullingar, but what they will NOT do, is support you financially, fraternally or professionally, in any way at all. The money will disappear from your bank account, regular as clockwork, the Montrachet and Château Latour will continue to flow at BLAPA HQ, and you, my dear colleagues, will still be unemployed, holding you dicks, with nothing but BLAPA stickers as a memento to their uselessness.
I can appear here ad nauseam (tr. to sickness) pointing out that BLAPA are the bunch of gutless cowards and purveyors of third-world bullshit that I know them to be. I can point out endless examples of their deception, threats, outright lies and highly selective affections that define them, but in the final analysis it all boils down to this. Are you, the professional Ryanair pilot, prepared to have your lives changed forever by a devious, self-aggrandising organisation that will result in base closures, wholesale dismissals and a demonstration of will that will shock you to your core?
It isn't BLAPA recognition that concerns me, since it’s rather like being savaged by a three-legged, gold-toothed rat, but rather, it is the consequences of them knocking at the door that I fear, and not for myself but for my colleagues yet to learn the truth about BLAPA. Ladies and gentlemen, we have nothing to gain from them, and everything to lose.
If you must know i am in days off and with all due respect, what i do in days off is none of your business.
I don't see you calling alibaba, mr repa, dannyalliga SAD, and they are frequent posters too
Thank you ATS, you reminded me of the issue of days off/ annual leave.
While you are enjoying happy off days in sunny EMA there are hundreds of pilots who are on unexpectedly allocated A/L, or on their month off maybe following a 40hrs flying month leaving them with 2000euros to spend in 60 days (you can imagine the kind of holiday you can afford) and I'm not gonna mention those (and they exist I can assure you) who had their 10 days A/L in a 20hrs flying month follwed by a month off leaving them virtually broke for 2 months with bills to pay and expected to enjoy their holidays????
There many things that should change in FR and those who pretend everything is ok and are afraid of their own shadows are definitely not helping the cause.
We have written facts as we ( i.e me and you ) see them. We have repeated ourselves time and time again. Everyone came up with facts, figures, scenarios, own views.
This debate will take ages to come to an end. You have your opinion on the BALPA matter in discussion and i have mine. Neither of us is going to change it so i propose we wait and see what happens.
As an obvius outsider to the Ryanair situation, but a BALPA EZY member, reading this thread, I can see two very obvious points sticking out in the wind here.
Leo Hairy ****, obviously a management glove puppet, with someones hand up his ar$e working his mouth goes on about base closures and other threats based on "business" decisions. All airline management are the same at their sick little core and if just one of you believes that any airline management board would keep a non-profitable base open as some sort of a thank-you for not joining a union then you all deserve your fate with your rancid mouthed **** at the helm. If they are to close, the will close, the question for you is if my base closes who do I trust to try and look after my interests best? Whose interest do you think MOL has in his void where a heart should be?
Second thing that strikes me, clearly with all the tripe spouting from the management puppets on here about BALPA, along with the threats Ryanair are scared of BALPA recognition, if they were not, why all the effort to make you afraid of growing a spine? Why do you think that is, and don't look to Hairy tw@t face for an honest answer to that, you know fine well he has one intent, to undermine your efforts for recognition, again, why? If BALPA are no threat, why? If they are under no obligation other than to turn up to meetings with BALPA, why? If bases close and transfer lists freeze is that BALPA that imposes that? So WHY does BALPA recognition make base closures, transfer freezes and no promotions necessary? WHY?
Are BALPA perfect? No? Do BALPA charge a 1% of salary fee? Yes. Have they improved or retained lifestyle at EZY - Yes, without doubt, could they have done better? probably, would we be in a better place without them? Of course not.
Let MOL go run some 3rd world sweatshop making Nike running shows or the like, his talents are clearly what these places thrive on.
Best of luck to all the Ryanair guys, such bullying and intimidation from your management need not be tolerated in silence any more, you are all worth more than that, now have the courage and conviction to tell your dictators that and let battle commence, and a battle it will be, but if one single job is lost due to Union recognition, the that case will have to be proven in a court, and that IS a battle BALPA will fight and win.
As for BALPA only fighting the battles it can win, you will see that it fought and LOST a major battle with BA over open skies, but fight it did, until defeat was declared. Hairy Camel Tw@t will tell you that is why they need your subs to replace the cash spent on that fight, and at the sametime he will tell you that BALPA will only fight the fights it can win, either way don't expect a coherent response from those with O'Leary's fingers gripping their gentlemans' area!
Well done Leo: putting the sensible case forward as usual.
We don't need hotheads, banging their drums, tubs and tambourines from behind the safety of the mother's aprons, encouraging others to sacrifice themselves on the slopes of the hills at Wicklow.
We need a calm analysis of the situation: why would BALPA start a campaign when other companies are laying people off? Why not concentrate on helping them? Why step in to a battle unarmed? Why not respect the wishes of the workers ( alibaba, whether you and your BALPA masters like it or not, pilots are resigning the BALPA whip and voting - and prepared my friend, unlike you, to put their names to their views - overwhelmingly against recognition).
You can disagree with my views, Leo's views, Day dreamer, bonglebear...any one of us: what you can't argue with is the level of support that exists against BALPA.
The cries of the militants who spout off about "management puppets / stooges" perpetuate the ethos of Red Robbo and Scargill: look where that got British Leyland and the mining industry. Look what it did to the Miner's Union.
It is not a "them and us" situation; when Sabena went bust the management went too. When Laker and Dan Air went so did the managers; you really should look beyond the end of your noses.
Yes ATS, I fight for the cause of many of us pilots who would like things to change.
There is a pilot union that we hope will help us in the process , there is a plan in place in order to start the recognition process, there has been an audit between FR pilots made by BALPA to understand our viewpoints and feelings for the company, many of us have their own ideas and suggestions on how to improve both the economics and the working standards...to cut a long story short many pilots are actively involved in this and hope that in a couple of years from now we could finally be over with this whole issue and work in a different environment than the one we aer in today.
Obviously for you everything is fine and I hope it will always be, unfortunately for many of us things are not fine at all.
But I agree with you, let's wait and see.
One thing though I would like to ask you: please look at FR not only as your shiny (in your opinion) EMA base but consider there are other 32 of them spread around; try to see the bigger picture instead of your little backyard.
leo selective quotations from me would hardly be grounds on which to adopt or drop a campaign of any sort.frustration at time has led me to lash out but this time we are organised and in pursuit of change.you and your chums from ema are not going to stop it.
dignity and respect do come from within but can be influenced to the good or bad from without.we will improve it from without.you might even pick some up yourself.
May I ask one final question, requiring as simple an answer as possible? So far in all the threads something is not quite clear.......and again may I say I am NOT in FR and this is purely out of interest for the industry.
To all those in the anti-union camp posting on this thread:
Is base closure and job loss threats your ONLY reason for being anti representation? APART from that, what are your real concerns over representation? What do you think BALPA involvement will NEGATIVELY do to FR? What do you feel, in general, across the industry is bad in a united workforce? It is obvious why management despise unions, but why the staff body? Please no angry responses, just clear answers...so far all I read is "dont join BALPA they do nothing for you"! well if so, then their involvement is no concern but if they DO have power, how will that power negatively affect the staff?
Powdermonkey,
I love my base. It was first choice, 20 min from my home, family, friends. Great colleagues, all new a/c, great routes....etc. It will close if Balpa are recognised.
I love my job for 1000 and 1 reasons. I will probably loose my job if Balpa are recognised, if not then i will loose my allowances, my 5/4 roster, my leave allowance will be altered, if im not sacked then ill be shipped off to another base (see above why i dont want that).
Those are just two aspects of how Balpa will negatively affect staff. Not forgetting, the cabin crew, engineers, ground staff....etc that will loose their jobs. At my base thats around (incl pilots) 400 staff at least. At one base.
The only power Balpa would have is to "negotiate" with Ryanair, who have already stated they will not negotiate. So the next step Balpa could ask us all to strike...and then the same thing happens - base closures, redundancies....etc.
The fact is Balpa have just said "Join us and we will change something somewhere at sometime, possibly, maybe"
They have not said what they can and will do. I know that "balpa is you" as people keep saying - but those people who have organised this campaign have not said what we are exactly fighting for. Dignity and respect - i have plenty of that. That means nothing to me in terms of what Balpa could achieve. If Balpa could say to us "we will achieve XXXXX" then they would have a few more supporters. However all we see daily is Balpa failing to achieve anything. Just ask Dan-air pilots, BA guys...etc The unemployment list seems to be growing.
Neither I nor any of my fellow pilots at my base want to be in that queue.
The sooner Balpa is rejected the better.
CommandB....
I fully understand the fears of every staff member not to mention all other indirect employees who benefit from the Ryanair footfall. So ALL this is PURELY based on reprisals if the staff don't play the FR way!
Essentially......no matter what FR decide to do in terms of workforce management / renumeration in the future, you guys will just have to suck it up or leave, but you will never be in a position to fight your corner!
Only one winner here, the shareholder! Things may be within an acceptable bracket for you guys now.....but the likely hood is it may just not be worth it in the near/far future!
The majority of us were completely happy with the job before this Balpa stuff started. Obviously there are always, in any job, going to be 1 or 2 people who dislike the way the place is run. However, as in any previous jobs I have had, those people have walked away and found other jobs which they prefer. Seems to me like thats what you do if you dislike something....? So the question remains why dont people do exactly that?
Also, in any job, if you dont do what the company wants - you are disciplined, so to speak. This is the way it works. If an EZY pilot disregards the company rules, he will be taken for tea and biscuits. Same at BA, same at FR. So yes, the reprisals from Ryanair are somewhere up there on my list of why I dont want recognition. But it goes ALOT further than that and of course it is not totally based on what RYR have said.
To put it bluntly -
Balpa in Ryanair = job losses for 1000's of people.
Id prefer to keep mine.
"but you will never be in a position to fight your corner" -> As i said at the start - the majority of us are happy with what we have and we certainly dont want Balpa "negotiating" redundancies for us like they have done so well for other airlines.
I love my base. It was first choice, 20 min from my home, family, friends. Great colleagues, all new a/c, great routes....etc. It will close if Balpa are recognised.
OK, so let me see if I have this correct.
Your base is only going to close if BALPA are recognised? There is no compelling financial or business reason for your base to close; the closure of the base will only occure if the pilots democratically vote to have a basic right recognised?
Please tell me if I have misunderstood the situation.
If the situation is as described then it really defies belief that there are so many blind to what management are up to.
I get it and of course employees must play by company rules, as pilots, we always ( mostly) observe the rules! The general point I was making was this:
there may come a day in the near future whereby you will NOT be happy with conditions imposed on you....lets say your 1 month off becomes 2...or maybe 3...and as is the case with some, not all, the current months off are very close to consecutive...followed by too many standbys ( see large bases with line training periods) and now the way of life you have is no longer very manageable, and you are forced to find bar work for 2 months ( actually happening in current climate). Will you then just say, Ah well thems are the rule, better start knocking on doors....and we all know how difficult that is!
If that is so, all the best...but I can't EVER see FR and the way they operate say, you know what, we have loads of money, lets reward our hard working staff! As long as money can be saved/gained by squeezing the workforce, and continuelly moving the goal post, it WILL continue as long as everyone accepts it.
IT IS MY GENERAL VIEW, and I fully admit I may be mistaken, as I am only observing this..but it kinda looks that way to me. I SINCERELY hope that any reduction in hours/pay/condition are based on current economics and making sure that these conditions are imposed solely for the benefit of all and the continued success of FR.....but I really don't think that management has yours or any other employees best interest at heart!
GUYS! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!
Closing bases or not has absolutely nothing to do with BALPA recognition or not. Its an excellent threat, because obviously FR have closed bases before. However, what most people here don't seem to understand is that MOL might be running the show, but he is not in charge. The SHAREHOLDERS are the people in charge. Picture MOL telling the shareholders he is closing all the bases in the UK.... You think they would agree..... After all, I would say that the UK bases are probably the ones bringing in the most cash to FR.
commandb - what is your basis for your wildly speculative remarks.do you think that ryanair is only keeping the base open for your benefit.surely in ryanairs model,if the base is profitable it stays open,if not then it must close.i cannot se where your immature and irrational reckoning comes from.
you say,if balpa recognised then 100's of job losses,so is that then true that ryanair is only profitable and able to make a profit because pilots have no voice,input.your irrational reasoning assumes that balpa and the pilots in ryanair have no positive contribution to make to the success of their company.have more confidence in your abilities and if ryanair ever do close that base,i hope that it won't tip you over the edge.you and the slim/abusing wonder team seem to think that the world stops outside your base.go for a walk this evening,you won't fall of the face of the planet.
Just a simple question to all the management clowns here: if the company decides to close a base (which they won't do of course, but that's the best these moppets have come up with), would the airport not have a case in suing RYR for breach of contract? On one hand publicly blame the £10 tax, internally blaming BALPA? Sounds like a no brainer to me.. arm the airport's lawyers with a selection of the EW,DOB and PB's documents, job done! And that's a few millions gone then. Not to mention the loss of pax to ezy or other. How are they going to justify themselves here? It just blows my mind how any pilot can believe any of this. And please all the June/July '09 union-busting joiners spare me the "we are going to lose a 1000 jobs, get fired, the sick mother story and the poor engineers". What if this was all a bluff, smoke, just to keep a few crapping themselves? Big mistake if you ask me! Should I mention these tactics lack any morality? Silly me..
TRSS, Leo and all the "I'm all right Jack" clique are working hard at dragging the debate around base closures and alleged job losses in a company that is forecasting 300M profit this year and has orders for another 100 Boeings. Let's get this back on the subject of recognition, true negotiations between management and pilots. To be recognized as professionals who have their say in the t&c's. Let the majority democratically decide if they want to stop the downward spiral. Let's keep the kids who have just borrowed 33K (and the rest) the choice between permanent or contractor. No setting up a dodgy Ltd company in EI controlled by a few obscure accountants. A transparent pay scale, an A/L system that is fair and tranparent. The few hardcore company defenders do not represent the majority of pilots. As for the 2 moppets mentioned above they are just looking after no1, show management how good boys they are at a**-licking to safeguard there own future.. Let me guess Leo, you probably are "floating" BRK paid at the "old" brk rate, what would you care if a base closed? And TRSS, you'll be all right Jack, with all that good work I bet you EMT will have a vacant position for you.. good boy. Won't lose your job or base after all, hey? Pathetic!
Isn't it possible to close a base and keep flying there from other bases?
And I would be surprised if there were any longterm contracts with airports. One of the stronger points of Ryanair has always been their ability to give up bases and under that pressure negotiate better terms.
If MOL can keep Balpa out by temporarily closing UK bases and forcing out all brookfield pilots he can keep ryanair's financial position strong without being slowed down by unions like BA currently is.
I think he'll take up the challenge. Worst that can happen is a penalty fee by some government or law institute which he can pay easily. That's aside from the fact that he probably has seen this coming and covered all his contracts pretty well.
Believing that this won't happen is probably as naive as believing that you won't need a union in the future. Since only the UK bases are voting, I wouldn't be surprised that they're going to prefer their short term future in favor of their long future, which they probably won't have if balpa gets in.
djanello - anything is possible.but to foresake balpa recognition on this basis is pure foolishness.why would a base be closed solely because the company is obliged by law to negotiate with it's employees,in the case of union recognition?these threats by management which have been believed by the more gullible and immature amonst us are the last desperate measure of an employer who knows that if ryanair pilots gain representation,then the company will have to shelve out money to better terms and conditions of the pilot group and in turn the cabin crew.everything in ryanair comes back to money and if balpa were going to lead to further cuts in pilots terms and conditions,then they would be welcomed with open arms.the jump from this to swingeing job cuts and base closures,is pure fantasy and supposition.threats,mere threats with no evidence to back them up.
East Midlands says NO to BLAPA!
about the Dim Reaper, or any other Ryanair pilot for that matter, but rather, because they're broke as a badger and desperately need the funds of Ryanair pilot memberships in order to survive. Hence the stony silence that came with the suggestion that they should represent us for free as a special joining bonus for new members. Heck, even I would sign up for that deal.
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