The Real Slim Shady

tocamak

you would have to ask BALPA why they sent 10 individual letters to FR asking for recogition at the 10 individual UK bases.

My perception is that the whole process is politically driven: perhaps they believe that they might have a slight chance of taking a small base in a fractured ballot rather than attempting to garner support globally.

tocamak

ATS apologies for being slightly out of context on your quote but what I was still trying to get at is that it seems that the majority, according to you and others, of RYR pilots who would be eligible to vote would reject unionisation as you call it. This being the case why not just have the ballot in a proper manner and then this will be put to bed.

Abusing_the_sky

tocamak, as far as i'm concerned, the ballot IS done in a proper manner.
There is a over "i vote for NO BALPA recognition" 90% vote in EMA base.
The votes will be audited by an independent auditor to ensure the legality and truthfulness of them.

Unlike BALPA who out of the blue sends FR letters requesting acknowledgment of union recognition without even consulting and/or informing it's own members!

The Real Slim Shady

Incidentally alibaba, your assertions about misleading information are in themselves misleading.

The Employment Act is quite clear: if the 10 per cent test is satisfied the CAC can impose recognition.

If the CAC considers that any 1 of 3 qualifying conditions exist it "may" decide a secret ballot of "union members" be held to establish whether the "union members" want recognition.

alibaba

By email with personal addresses and with NO independent body such as the CAC or Electoral Reform Society NOT scrutinising. hmm The people involved were actively badgering people for a response. How will that go down in a CAC hearing? Good luck with the independent scrutiniser as my mate down the pub said he would sign off on it for a fiver. “As far as you are concerned”, that’s ok though because you speak for everyone??? It's a rather arrogant stance is it not?

That’s not a ballot, that is out and out intimidation and I think many people realise that. Kim Jong-il will be proud young one.

False statements and then intimidatory action of colleagues. The CAC will have a say about it i'm sure but what about your colleagues? It's ok though as you obviously don't give a stuff about them.. I just hope for the person who emailed and their family’s sake that a colleague doesn't pursue legal action against such preposterous outrages.

I haven't responded ATS to your post above because I have been patiently waiting for you to answer tocamak's question. There seems for some bizarre reason that you are unwilling or unable to answer the question directly? Why?

It's a ballot of WORKERS not MEMBERS. Hence the said person contacted everyone who are all WORKERS in the base. Your arguing against yourself now..

Abusing_the_sky

if it is, then i learned from the best, i learned from you dear.

I don't give a stuff about my colleagues?? I think it's the other way around my friend; you and your pro BALPA friends still didn't answer my question: who is going to pay for my rent in an European base when i have my house in the Midlands, who is going to do the same for my best pal who is also a CC, who is going to look after the pregnant ladies on G/D as FOR SURE (get a grip dears!) they won't be able to transfer to somewhere else once the base is closed, who is going to pay for the engineers to go abroad and still be able to look after their families day in day out?
And I don't give a stuff about my colleagues???

I apologize, i missed that completely. Would you be ever so kind and tell me what the question was?

Doubt it very much. Unlike others i keep a straight line, repeat myself time and time again until some of the thick skulls around here actually get the reality as it is, not as BALPA pictures it (and the future) to be.

I am just a CC voicing my opinions in what i believed (note the past tense emphasis) to be a grown up debate. There have been threats at my address which police will be more than happy to investigate. What's it going to be next if i keep posting? Wait for me in the car park after lates? Buy a Pay as You Go sim card (which of course is untraceable) and bombard my phone with threatening texts? Throw some bricks through my windows?
Get a reality check, will you? This is not the 1920's. Its a free world in many places and free speech is in power.
Like it or not my pro BALPA friend, i will do whatever it takes to fight against BALPA and it damaging my career and job!

Simple as that.

powdermonkey

ATS
Of course not! .....
but the point is you should never be in a position where you feel you should make such a statement. Either way, the best of luck to everyone, the dole queue is long, getting longer and there is usually only one hatch open!
Not a fun place to be...

The Real Slim Shady

You know that you are talking complete and utter rubbish. Getting people to vote on their future is intimidation? Telling them that how they vote is down to their own beliefs and conscience, that it matters not whether it is a YES or NO vote so long as they have there say?

Is that more intimidating than BALPA refusing to acknowledge the wishes of the pilots at EMA and forcing a CAC recognition application leaving us no option but to undertake a judicial review if they succeed with recognition?

No,alibaba, you consider it intimidation because you are spineless: you won't stand up and be counted as a BALPA supporter. Scared of losing your job : more chance of that if BALPA get in? Scared that someone might point out the deficiencies in your logic of paying BALPA to royally screw you over?

Not according to BALPA: they want to ignore our vote and ""engage with the BALPA pilot community". Ignore the "workers" and deal with the "members".

So the wishes of the non union workers don't come into the equation here: not that it matters in the final analysis.

BALPA will fail.......again.

Abusing_the_sky

How very true powdermonkey.
But truth being told, in this day an age, i'd rather still have a job and (maybe) be treated like rubbish by the management than sitting in the dole que...

powdermonkey

Well so would I ATS, so would I.....but I got there as there was no planes for me to fly, not for any other reasons. Look I am not in FR, I have no axe to grind either way, I posted comments based on what I have been told and on what I have read here. I do not agree with intimidation of any kind whether it be management towards staff or staff to one another! I shall let you all who are directly concerned sort it out and I hope you do! I DO NOT need more peeps in my queue.
On the plus side ATS, I am getting a lovely tan! seem to have lost the pasty 4am look! :-)

CommandB

Still i see no one has answered ATS' or my own question - will Balpa / pro-balpa pilots pay my salary, mortgage, living expenses when my/our base is closed and we've got no jobs??

Also will you still say Balpa was the right choice when your lining up in the dole queue??

As ATS said, i will do whatever it takes to fight against BALPA and it damaging my career and job.

dannyalliga

I would like to refer to my CC colleague Abusing The Sky but this is also gonna be a wider picture I will try to draw for those who are not familiar with FR or those who seem to live a happy and very provicial life in some supposedly FR "heavenly base".

The very common story of 2 FR pilots:

Cadet:
-passes the selection and has to find (often in a very few days) 28K euros to fund his training not including accomodation/food for the whole period (ground school/sim/base training)
-during line training (after safety pilot release) earns peanuts and gets thrown around all across the FR network wherever there are line trainers available (accomodation/transport/food at his own expenses)
-after passing his line check he gets a base ,a few lucky ones get the one of choice, but the majority find themselves in a foreign country where they have to settle virtually without any support whatsoever from the company.
-if they are lucky enough not to be transferred elsewhere without notice (like the VLC guys) loosing their rent deposits or having to move the whole family to another country and find an international school for their kids right in the middle of the school year then they start line flying
-line flying for an F/O consists generally of 1 or 2 days ON and 3 or 4 STBY days during which a BRK pilot makes no money but still has to be available, pay his rent, his bills, his training loans and eventually take care of his family; not unusual to find yourself flying 40 hours/month which translates into 4000 euros gross/month which becomes less than 3000 after tax (now consider paying back 28K for the type rating, probably even more for their basic training, the rent, the bills, the car park, the uniform,some sort of health insurance, a little loss of license insurance, the car,the hotel when going to the sim or when sent out of base....let alone supporting a family).
-Let's say one manages to survive (most do, FR is full of nice guys/girls who love their jobs and give it all they have to succeed) and after some years he gets his command upgrade (bonded) just to find himself on a lower payscale than the other captains for 1 year and also sent away to another base after say 3 or 4 years he had settled into the one he was operating from

Captains:

-generally arrive from other airlines (for many different reasons) with lots of experience and already typed.
-they usually get asked their preferred base but only a handful get it, the rest are sent far from home in one of the many bases to find out that they don't even have a 5/4 roster but a 5/3 like the new italian bases.
-many end up opting for a floating BRK contract and start living like gypsies (organizing their own travels/hotels/meals/transoptation) hoping that way to be able to get home more often while waiting to be finally transferred to their base of choice.
-some wait for years and are told the waiting list for their specific base is very long, just to find out for instance that a newly upgraded Captain has just been sent there
-they don't have the same problem as the F/O's with low flying hours because they easily max out the yearly limits (900 hours) and make around 130K gross which equals 6800 euros net/month (excluding car park,uniform,hotels,car,bills,mortgage,family,heal th insurance,loss of licence etc etc)

Both Capt's and F/O's have either a FR contract that can vary in T&C's from base to base or a BRK 5 years renewable contract that could be terminated at any time.


I am very aware of the fact that what I wrote can for some be an exaggeration but for others could also sound quite mild too; this is just to let people know that as there are people fat and happy with what they have in EMA like our colleague ATS there are also many people all across the network who are unhappy enough to look for CHANGE.
Especially when they are fully aware they are working for the most successful airline around.

It would take very little effort to make this company one of the best places to work for, the BALPA campaign is just a way to voice our concerns and hopefully the starting point of a new era in which we will be finally able to sit down with the bosses and talk both about financial growth and the well being of those who make that growth possible.

Will it be a tough game?Yes it will probably be, but it's worth trying because the alternative is the status quo.

alibaba

Oh dear I'm not sure if you get it do you?

Misleading pilots and back peddling from 10% as an argument to try and influence people will NOT get that person a get out of jail free card.

The mental and psychological reality of this act of untruth is REAL and will be burned in all pilots heads. The person involved engaged in an act of deceit to try to obtain a personal agenda which will not escape people easily.

NO not if the ballot is free, fair and confidential and free from intimidation. That's basic voting and balloting procedures and the core of what democracy is. Was this email and list obtained a valid version of democracy universally acknowledged?

I will supply the whole act so individuals can not simply select quotes and or parts while mixing in opinion for all to see:

Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 (c. 52)

Employment Relations Act 1999 (c. 26)

Paragraph 20 to 22 is what Shady refers to in Schedule A1 of the act in his last post which we will analyse later on. I ask all to read for themselves if again we are going to get selective quotes from the schedule and act combined with MISREPRESNTATION and WRONG OPNION.

So what is the 10% test? Here it is in Schedule A1 in reference to APPLICATION ONLY for recognition, of the act in paragraph 14
part 4 and 5:

At this point the CAC has satisfied that the proposed bargaining unit is passed the 10% test so can proceed with the "Application" for statuary recognition. NOT to grant it.. Important difference.

So to imply in an email that 10% of WORKERS who where MEMBERS were going to lead to full recognition by declaration to the CAC is WRONG. You see the central argument fails straight away at this conjecture.

This is by selectively quoting what is act, statute and law and mixing it with opinion which should be left to experienced professionals. Either the person doesn't understand the act in the first place or he does but is trying to portray it in a manner which benefits his own arguments. I don't think anybody has a problem with opinion but they do have a problem with MISREPRESENTED FACTS and EVIDENCE. Either innocently or with a more DECIETFUL alternative MOTIVE?

Here is part of the email in question and notice how it is act mixed with WRONG OPINION used to try and influence pilots in the base;

"In a nutshell" it is NOT the current legislation or statute far from it. The link from the 10% test for application to the CAC to "imposing" recognition is tenable and quite obvious. It is at least disgusting and something the less guided of people, not so aware of the legislation should be made aware of.

Quite understandably why should pilots be aware of the act as stands as in the end they are PROFESSIONAL PILOTS not legal eagles?

Examining paragraph 20 and 22 of Schedule A1, there is very interesting reading and from paragraph 20 onwards up to and including paragraph 29.

So what does this mean? In paragraph 22 as above, if you satisfy part 1 a and b then it leads to a declaration as in part 2, as said and has been said previously in past posts.

In part 3 it says that a ballot MUST be called if 1 a and b are not satisfied thus not leading to a declaration as in part 2. So part 3 is now in action as the conditions in part 4 are now prevalent. Slims NEW argument was that;

He/she is missing the point that they DO. Because a ballot is called as under part 3 of paragraph 22 if conditions in part 4 are evident. In other words it goes to a ballot and it is ALL WORKERS of the bargaining unit that will take a free, fair ballot and free from intimidation. In other words Democracy and Majority rule.

I do apologise for having to go through this in such detail but it is vitally important that the facts do stand. People understand how complicated this is and why you should when analysing such law undertake professional opinion as to the requirements for recognition and what it involves.

Either the person has been undertaking an act of armchair solicitor or he has been asked to engage in this email with management obtaining the information and passing it on for the person to so present which is as stated many times before MISLEADING and UNTRUTHFUL. Another question is where or why this individual tried to obtain this MISLEADING information and for what motivation?

In light of the current evidence presented I ask would you buy double glazing from this man? Would you send him round to your pensioner parents to sell shares or wares to part with their hard earned money? It is in the same realms and activity of what "Boiler Room" activity is to the stock market.

Cheep and salesman like and why all pilots in Ryanair REQUIRE professional representation.

BALPA for professionals for a long term future or live by LIES, UNTRUTHS and MISREPRESENTATION?

Your choice if colleagues or management allow you that choice if not denying you a vote?

FreeBird1106

danny, very good post. One mistake though: cadets don't pay 28K no more, no no.. it's 33K! Do we actually know where that money goes? Some will end up in RYR plc, but who owns this company called East Midlands Training Ltd? Sorry, off topic a little!

the grim repa

I Have just recieved an intimidatory post from abusing the sky,presumably with the cooperation of her partner slim shady.i will refer it to the moderators.seems that there is no levels to which mol and his union busting management will stoop to achieve continued abuse of its workforce.

i suppose these tactics are no surprise when i think back to the time of the last union recognition vote and during our type rating we were approached by dob and told our contracts were to be back dated by some months and that we would be back paid.there was one small matter.we all had to vote against the ongoing balpa recognition campaign although we were not entitled to vote as we were not yet full time employees in the uk.sad to say,most
ignorants did vote against,because they trusted their employer and the campaign was defeated.the ironic thing is that our pay was never back dated and most of those ignorants quickly realised what happened and after a little more raping,most have now left ryanair.

Abusing_the_sky

repa, if:

this is scary and intimidating, then i don't know what to say.... I'm evil, pure evil i tell ya!


MWA HA HA HA HA

CommandB

Grim, "most of those ignorants quickly realised what happened and after a little more raping,most have now left ryanair"

As i pointed out earlier - why have you not left my friend?
After 5 years of moaning on here about how bad Ryanair is, i just cant get my head around why anyone, if so unhappy at their place of work, wouldn't just leave? I mean I can understand a year, maybe 2 but 5 years of constant dislike for your job/company...are you sure your not hiding something from us..!?
Stop trying to be a martyr.

zerotohero

Is it actuly 33K Euro just for the type rating or is it 33K including factoring in things like accomidation and uniforms and stuff?

friend of mine has a place offered and I am so far advising him to look else where with the new contracts that are in place and costings, does not seem worht it to me anymore! thank god I joined when the Euro was 1.30 and the type a lot cheaper

dannyalliga

I would like to make a little point about the above statement that comes up very frequently when the 2 parties clash:

1- the aim is not to loose those who dislike something but it is to change things so that more people can be a little happier and not only a few ones.

2- the way the business is run by FR also influences other businesses and some of them have also gone bust because of fierce competition by FR.
Competition is good of course, but only if fair.
And FR is often not fair at all in the way they compete and putting others out of business in such a way also restricts the chances one would have to jump ship; the whole picture has something sick to it and if you don't see it then you gotta be blind.

captplaystation

Abusing the sky,

I hate to tell you, but you and your nearest and dearest Slim are the "model employees" that have allowed Ryanair to do what they do best, I.E reduce their costs on YOUR back. In real terms earnings in Ryanair dropped 40 yes FOUR ZERO / FORTY % in the last 10 years (prior to the most recent "negotiations") due to the total myopia /I'm allright Jack attitude displayed so eloquently here by your good selves, that inflicts so many of your colleagues.
You don't even have the imagination to see how fragile indeed is your current cosy "comfort zone".
NEMA offers MOL a bum deal . . . . GoodBye EMA
Abusing or Slim step out of line . . . . Goodbye & Thanks (probably without the thanks) to one or both.
Try and see beyond the end of your noses, I don't entirely disagree with you that now is indeed not the best time to try and enforce some moderation on the rush to the bottom, but if earnings can be cut @ 4% a year for the last 10 very profitable (for Ryanair ) years, when exactly will be a good time ? or you prefer to earn 40% less in another 10 years time ?
Wake up and smell the coffee (assuming you remembered to put it in your flight bag)
BTW, do the pair of you ever go to work, or does PPRuNing appear on your roster as a SD ( more like SAD but never mind)