Terms and EndearmentThe forum the beancounters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work. Let others in the industry make educated choices on where the grass is less brown! Scheduled, charter or contract -
What you have here are maybe 6 hardcore whingers out of over 2000 pilots
In which case why all the fuss about a ballot for recognition as presumably the result will be an overwhelming rejection. The amount of propaganda against Balpa doesn't seem to tie in with this though.
There might be more to his dismissal then is know to me or to most boardmembers, however, that still does not mean that being fired for promoting an union means you getting fired is your own fault, as some of the esteemed members of this board seem to think. And since I do not know at what stage he currently is in his dismissal (is he going to court, etc) I cannot allready tell if BALPA is benificial to him or not. But that wasn't the point of my post, since I am not in the position to talk about BALPA or it's use. (being neither employed by RYR or in the UK)
If the majority don't support it why not let it go to a free, confidential vote (not like a named email where individuals can be picked out for no matter what their beliefs are? Democracy Ryanair style just like Iran and N. Korea!) and see what the outcome is? Democracy rules..
To try and deny that right by TWISTING the TRUTH for ones own argument or agenda which we have all established, of the laws and acts in statute which does represent natural justice is alarming and very disappointing.
I'm sure colleagues across the flight deck and in the Crewroom will appreciate the attempt to misrepresent facts for some sort of motivation?
If the motivation and argument is job security would it not be better to stand together as a large group of pilots to maintain your job? There is 197 A/C to crew and that won't change either way.
If the said individual does believe the base will vote one way then why not let pilots vote in a free, confidential ballot? To try and deny that right with misleading and FALSE arguments is simply disgusting!
It is ILLEGAL to intimidate employees who wish to form a union
It is ILLEGAL to fire people for talking about wanting to join a union
Ryanair management are intimidating you into not signing up for union recognition because they do not wish to negotiate - they prefer to impose their will on their employees.
Such practices were made illegal after WW2 by the first Labour Government.
Management CANNOT just dismiss employees for joining a union. BALPA would fight such dismissal for very expensive employee compensation.
IF you are unionised you always have ultimate power - YOU CAN STRIKE, YOU CAN GROUND THE AIRLINE, Doing this is agony to management, shareholders and the bullies like O'Leary. That of course is what he is frightened of.
Wake up and realise why you must be strong, where would we be be if in the Battle of Britain pilots had said 'Oh I don't want to go up flying today in case somebody takes a shot at me' - Living under the Nazis is where we'd be...
If you believe in democracy rather than martial law you need a union. Sure BALPA isn't perfect, but it's what we've got and it's the only thing that protects those of us who work in other airlines from the kind of abominable and borderline illegal practices that your management exhibit.
Incidentally why oh why isn't somebody talking to the press about this employee intimidation - after all the company has put its threats in writing and they are ILLEGAL!!
Put your money where your mouths are ad come out, up front, real names and vote for BALPA.
Get BALPA in at your base: fight for it.
Then when your base is closed get BALPA to fight your corner at Tribunal.
2 years later you might get £60K in compensation: don't think Wee Willy's mob (BALPA airline), or the Bearded Wonder's mob (BALPA airline) or Deutsch BMI (BALPA airline) will be beating a path to your doors with job offers.
Can't see the BALPA hierarchy losing much sleep about making their mortgage payments!!
BALPA are in this for the politics: if they actually gave a monkeys about the welfare of the pilots ( cabin crew, engineers and ground staff) at any FR base in the UK, they would stop right now and focus their attentions on helping out the pilots of BA, VS , bmi and any other outfit unfortunate enough to have to deal with them.
where does RAF pilots in the battle of Britain fit in to unionization?
your argument could equally be transposed, that if the RAF was unionized, the flight crews could have taken an elected position not to fly due to the personal risk.
Either way, it is a pointless analogy as military service personnel are not unionized and failure to act under command has it repercussions. Military service under a declaration of war is not comparable to commercial operations.
Democracy relates to a methodology of governance, not a commercial operation that exists to make a profit.
Democracy relates to a methodology of governance, not a commercial operation that exists to make a profit.
There are many conceptual forms of democracy in existence. So why democracy is a method of governance it is also a method of determining outcomes through free and fair debate and the decision of the majority. Such forms of democracy are known as polyarchy and aggregative democracy.
Aristotle stated; "But one factor of liberty is to govern and be governed in turn; for the popular principle of justice is to have equality according to number, not worth, and if this is the principle of justice prevailing, the multitude must of necessity be sovereign and the decision of the majority must be final and must constitute justice"
This is describing what social justice is about and how our laws are constructed and how we live in most western European nations. So if it is to be ruled with a form of democracy or live in a form of tyranny and autocracy I know as a free thinking person what I will choose. By trying to deny people the right to vote by MISLEADING people. The email and people are acting in benefiting tyranny and against democracy. SIMPLE.. Any arguments the person may have had have been undermined simply by the act of deceit.
197 A/C have to be crewed and need engineers so if aircraft get moved they are still going to have to staffed. Ryanair have a legal obligation under EU, UK and most other EU countries law to offer you alternative positions or arrangements in these other bases. You might have to move but your job or position is still going to have to be maintained and that is without discussing if closing a base because of recognition (as you say will happen) is even legal. Will your position be maintained? Yes it will.
The time you are going to be at risk is when Ryanair ground aircraft and put you on unpaid leave in the winter period. Whether you like it or not it is coming your way over the coming year the same way it came to STN last winter. What are you going to do about that with the company becoming more and more seasonal? FO's with years of experience are now being paid less than London Tube drivers! I'll let you work out why that it is..
I have seen a number of BRK FO's struggling to make bill payments because of a lack of flying never mind if the said individual gets injured. Just a question; Will you pay his or her bills once the winter down happens or he breaks a leg? These individuals have on or around £100,000 of debt but are struggling to make loan repayments from flight training. One had to declare himself bankrupt. Just a normal guy who came unstuck due to not flying. Another received multiple months of forced A/L and had to move out of his apartment as he couldn't afford to live. Is that what you call full time employment? I call that seasonal work likened to teenagers working over the summer holidays with the added bonus of having more debt than they know what to do with. Doesn't matter though, at least there are some jobs in Val Thoren in the winter!
The amount of movements has to be maintained in these airports. W patterns will not maintain these movements numbers. The UK market is the largest market and nearly half of all movements are in or out of the UK. If you think Fidelity Investments and Merrill Lynch are going to let DOB, EW and whatever DOB calls PB get away with risking that sort of financial income, then you are naive at best. This is all about the perception of power but shareholders will not let the said individuals step to far including MOL himself in trying to maintain an unsustainable ideology.
In maintaining these movements comes local jobs with these bases. The local development funds and tourism councils that supply Ryanair with money either through direct funding or through proxy's such as the airports, demand job creation and stability. Ryanair are going to find it very difficult to apply multiple closures while trying to stave off airport and development fund contracts as well as the contracts of service with the service providers. Multiple breaches of contract with many, many legal challenges before we even get to workers legal challenges.
Then we get to the local, national governments as well as the European Union. Many politicians whether senior national or local will have many things to say about such action being directed at their continuances workers because of a group of pilots trying to obtain union recognition for collective bargaining and the freedom to association. If you think the UK government will also have nothing to say about it then you would be wrong. Ryanair management can do what it wants with its leaser’s aeroplanes but it can't flout the law while doing so! The various branches of governments have considerable amounts of power to apply pressure as HMRC have been doing. Ryanair management has already had various brushes with the EU about other matters and LOST every time such as the Walloon government EU case. Ryanair is less likely to try and go to war with them on freedom of association and collective bargaining rights as the law is very clear on these subjects. They just rely on the perception to everyone no matter whom they are that they will. In other words all Ryanair managers have to do is sell you the aroma of invincibility when in very real terms they are not.
All these things without the workers applying the pressure of collective organisation on the company themselves which can bring the company to it knees if so desired. This is not the way forward though as has been said many times. Partnership is what is required.
PART TIME SEASONAL CONTRACTS or FULL TIME EMPLOYMENT? Your choice but only if colleagues give you that choice..
197 A/C have to be crewed and need engineers so if aircraft get moved they are still going to have to staffed. Ryanair have a legal obligation under EU, UK and most other EU countries law to offer you alternative positions or arrangements in these other bases. You might have to move but your job or position is still going to have to be maintained and that is without discussing if closing a base because of recognition (as you say will happen) is even legal. Will your position be maintained? Yes it will.
But i don't want to move! That's the point i (and many others are) am trying to make! I am perfectly fine where i am now. Why should i pay a rent somewhere outside the UK when i have my house here in the Midlands? Are you, your pro BALPA friends and BALPA itself going to pay for my rent when i get transferred so i can afford to pay for the mortgage?? I can't do both you know.
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I have seen a number of BRK FO's struggling to make bill payments because of a lack of flying never mind if the said individual gets injured. Just a question; Will you pay his or her bills once the winter down happens or he breaks a leg? These individuals have on or around £100,000 of debt but are struggling to make loan repayments from flight training.
Again, will YOU pay for my rent when i am transferred outside the UK because MOL is so pi$$ed off with this BALPA thing that he's going to close down the base?
I do feel sorry for these guys and gals, and i honestly wish them all the best and hope they get back on their feet. However, isn't it all laid down in their T&C's? I'm sure the company wouldn't do that without looking into T&C's first. They are not stupid, they are a BUSINESS and will do whatever it takes to keep it going. What they won't do is being careless and find themselves taken to court. They've done it in the past and lost. I guess they learned a lesson.
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The UK market is the largest market and nearly half of all movements are in or out of the UK.
Correct, however closing the UK bases won't affect the company's revenue one bit; they will simply relocate a/c's "at the other end". They'll still have flights in or out of the UK, and still keep the UK market which indeed, is the largest methinks. Opening a base in say BTS won't cost as much as a bases' costs in the UK. It's all economics. All about money, revenue and profits. Would you do it differently should you have your own airline?
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The local development funds and tourism councils that supply Ryanair with money either through direct funding or through proxy's such as the airports, demand job creation and stability
Now, who's supplying who with money? Wasn't the FR-VLC apt tiff all about that? VLC apt wanted more money off FR? FR bring in pax; pax pay lots of taxes when they purchase their tickets, part of these "taxes" going to the area councils/govs/authorities where the apt is.
Job creation and stability.... basically take an engineers' job who is perfectly content and happy with his/her UK base as he/she only lives down the road from the apt and who can't take the company's transfer offer on because his/her parents are ill and he/she needs to stay locally to look after them, and give his/her job to a contractor engineer, more workload on this person's shoulders but for the same money he/she earns already. Ruin 2 lives at one time, why don't you?
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They just rely on the perception to everyone no matter whom they are that they will. In other words all Ryanair managers have to do is sell you the aroma of invincibility when in very real terms they are not.
So does BALPA. At least you don't pay Ryanair a "membership fee" and you know exactly what to expect from them, good or bad.
If you can prove and guarantee me in writing that FR will not close my base down should BALPA be recognized, a document signed by all the FR head honchos guaranteeing i will keep my job in the base i am now, i will then be more than happy to stop posting and "outrage" my dearest F/D colleagues with my opinions.
You can't? Thought so...
I have a bigger and stronger pair than you pal and i am all woman!!!
TRSS has a way bigger pair as he doesn't hide behind PPRuNe anonymity - people know who he is and he never denied it.
There are more people with a bigger "pair" than yours and your union supporter friends; just have a read through the thread to see how many sensible, who can see the reality as it is people DO NOT want BALPA involved in the company because it will not only affect their jobs, but their lives too.
I'll quote myself, just for you:
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If you can prove and guarantee me in writing that FR will not close my base down should BALPA be recognized, a document signed by all the FR head honchos guaranteeing i will keep my job in the base i am now, i will then be more than happy to stop posting and "outrage" my dearest F/D colleagues with my opinions.
Your view of the Airline economics is correct in a perfect world, but we live in a real world, where perfection is a myth.
The post that I have read from you are all flawed in several aspects, and are infact pure BALPA style propaganda.
The jobs will be lost, bases closed and lives wrecked.
You mention the BRK pilots, they have No say now and will still have NO say should BALPA get in.
Your misguided statements are the type that creates insecurities within a workforce, as they show that there is hope after base closure.
You forget the statement that there will be no Pilot relocation, there is a guarantee of that. Base closed Your out, Bye Bye dont leave the lights on if your last to leave the base.
Powdermonkey
You too are not helping with your remarks, and statement to "Grow Some".
Look at how BALPA are acting with the redundancies in Virgin, and their lapdogs in BA, its not MOL running those companies (Although he could not do any worse ) the people who are, are accountants.
They are the architects of all the industries cutbacks and reductions in T&C's
I predict that there will be many more job losses in the industry this winter, do those who support BALPA think that they can stop this ?
Dont be stupid, economics will require cutback in all scheduled and charter airlines into late 2010.
Do you want work, or the dole que.
We have seen MOL playing ball, now watch him play "Hardball"
Still nobody has answered what part the BRK pilots will play, or even if they will be given a voice.
The "I'm alright Jack" brigade will bust your a.. every time.
The BALPA or Bust brigade will cause more grief to their colleagues (Who they care nothing about) than they could ever imagine.
BALPA cannot and will not protect you. Its your career, your job, protect your colleagues.
Ok....may I recant the "grow a pair " comment, it was however based on the fact that "fear" of outcome is driving people to not fight for and preserve conditions which are without question in decline!
So let's move on, the issue is not that BALPA or IALPA will save your job if due to genuine economical issues, positions will be made redundant, shit happens, I KNOW! however the issue is that you should have the RIGHT to vote for OR against recognition, WITHOUT any fear of losing your base, job, way of life etc....and until ALL get involved and allow democracy to rule, then economic crisis or boom time, it won't matter, BECAUSE without a common voice, management can do whatever they desire to reduce costs and keep share holders happy, for they will ALWAYS demand more,
Vote, have your voice heard, and move with the outcome. BUT unfair treatment is NOT acceptable in any workplace. That is all the point that I am making.
FURTHERMORE, there MAY and I pray not, come a day when you or one of your colleagues gets mistreated ( sacked, bullied, put on too many standbys, moved, reduced pay, change of roster etc) and there will be NO one to help, no one to agree and fight your corner on, no support of any kind, no renumeration....what happens then? and it will be all too easy for management, as this is EXACTLY why they have you all so divided! Its a real shame!
Last edited by powdermonkey : 3rd July 2009 at 20:34.
I HAVE read the thread, carefully and many times over, not just this one but ALL the other threads too...and unless I am terribly mistaken, the overiding anti-union concerns seem to be over fear of management reprisals ( ie closing of bases if workers have represention and consequent loss of jobs).
IF that IS the reality, then not fighting this bullying is going to lead to further tears in the future, if this is NOT the reality, then unions and represention will not matter as everyone will be happy and require no help!
Is this right in your opinion???
Still waiting for the answer to why, if there are 1994 pilots who don't want anything to do with Balpa and only 6 hardcore whingers, are RYR afraid of a ballot?
the overiding anti-union concerns seem to be over fear of management reprisals ( ie closing of bases if workers have represention and consequent loss of jobs).
Can you blame anyone fearing the above?
What's "right" in my opinion is that people (a handful of pilots in this case) who are pro BALPA, should stop being selfish and start thinking seriously about the impact and consequences the BALPA unionization WILL have on other people's lives; CC's, engineers, people on ground duties...
Is it THAT hard to believe it's not just the pilots who will be affected, rosters changed, leave changed, pay changed (you obviously will have to pay up for the "honor" of being a BALPA member) if BALPA gets its way? I thought we were supposed to work as a team... Obviously not the case here!
Last edited by Abusing_the_sky : 4th July 2009 at 00:07.
Reason: because i can
The company aren't afraid of a ballot: we are having one at EMA, the management welcome it.
90+% don't want BALPA but BALPA won't accept this.
They want a ballot of " the BALPA pilot community": not all of the pilots, just the "BALPA pilot community".
The exact quote is " it would be inappropriate to simply accept your results without further engagement with the BALPA pilot community."
In all of or correspondence with BALPA we simply can't get a straight answer from them: they refuse to accept our ballot results probably because they don't like them.
Is that your concept of democracy and fairness?
We don't want BALPA but they just won't take it on board.
They aren't interested in the pilots welfare: they want to score political points.
That is downright reckless behaviour.
Last edited by The Real Slim Shady : 4th July 2009 at 00:27.
sounds familiar refrain from another equally enlightened part of the world!
More seriously, I would have thought that a ballot would have to be done independent of either party (i.e.through say the electoral reform society) to get a result that could be accepted by all concerned. The ballot would surely have to be open to all possible eligible pilots (not sure of the cross border bit here) and can hardly be done by individual bases; how could STN be a "Balpa"base but EMA not for instance? I still refer to the six whingers amongst the 2000 which would seem to indicate a healthy majority for rejecting Balpa and more recently:-
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What's "right" in my opinion is that people (a handful of pilots in this case) who are pro BALPA
tocamak, you failed to quote the whole sentence as i wrote it:
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What's "right" in my opinion is that people (a handful of pilots in this case) who are pro BALPA, should stop being selfish and start thinking seriously about the impact and consequences the BALPA unionization WILL have on other people's lives; CC's, engineers, people on ground duties...
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