Terms and EndearmentThe forum the beancounters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work. Let others in the industry make educated choices on where the grass is less brown! Scheduled, charter or contract -
UK Viking & any other pilots who think cuts are as a result of the economic climate. I suggest you go onto the Ryanair website, look at the investors section, dowload the financial reports and then compare that to what's happened to pilot's terms and conditions. BALPA has. You'll find while the company has massively increased profits, and bosses taken large bonuses, pilot pay and conditions have reduced massively. Think the terms and condtions will improve in time? Why would the company do that? You don't like it, you can off. Their words. We'll get someone else in & give them the base they want for slightly less pay and replace you.
Don't like that treatment? Join BALPA, vote for recogntion.
When we see postings linking to sources relating to Ryanair incidents / near accidents where the captain is quoted as saying " I did not want to tell the management that my son had died because I feared losing my job" .. perhaps we should be asking who the real aviation mafia is.
People like you perhaps ? ... line pilots who tow the management line and drag others down with you.
That incident is indefensible in human and corporate terms and you know it.
My background ? OUR company voted best in EUROPE and throughout Europe ... best in industry (not aviation) 35 years in the building ... and who's first and most important resource were the people who made it that good.
LEO .. go bully .... that's simply the low level you and your like can aspire to.
Du bist Abschaum einfach.
Last edited by Teddy Robinson : 14th June 2009 at 07:19.
Contrary to my better judgement I feel I have to say something about the RYR FO bashing that has become a regular feature of this and other threads. I count myself extremely lucky to have a job in the current environment and I never set out to fly a jet as a low hours pilot - any aircraft would have been good enough. But RYR is the only organisation that has given me a chance to fly an aircraft of any type and I'm very grateful to them for that. Yes, its cost me money, but how many airlines in the last 3 years or so have offered jobs to low houred pilots without some kind of financial commitment? Even BA claws some of the costs back through reduced pay for 2 or 3 years. The costs are not as great as people make out - it cost me 18k or so for my type rating after the VAT was refunded. Yes, a lot of money but I made it back fairly quickly. I don't know anyone that has had to make a financial outlay who has found it cheaper - and I know plenty who have paid getting on for twice as much. I did not and do not "pay to fly". I have not set out to ruin everyone's T&Cs. I find the notion that I should NOT have taken a job with RYR to preserve everyone else's cosy little environment quite ludicrous. Do people really believe that this a sensible option for low hours pilots? I have never been of the "job at any price" view, but short of going on the dole, defaulting on my mortgage, becoming homeless and probably offing myself from Clifton Suspension Bridge, I didn't really see many other options at the time.
The people who bash people like me have a pretty curious outlook. I'm not sure if its based on jealousy, because they had to fly crappy little planes around for years, or ignorance. I make no apology for having what I consider to be a great job. I think I've earned it. Whilst I may not be a pilot god like so many of the contributors here, I learn something every day and my handling skills are clearly ok. I am not a "cheap asshole" - I've been well trained and have worked bloody hard to get here. Yes, there are one or two who seem to slip through the net. But does anyone really think this doesn't happen in EVERY airline? If you do, you're on a different planet to the one I'm on. At the end of the day - I don't really see what is different to what I've done, to what BA cadets have been doing for 30 or 40 years. I spoke to a guy the other day who was flying a 707 in his first job after finishing at Oxford. So please... give it a rest will you? The enemy is not the person sitting in the right hand seat...
If you can't afford to fly professionally without needing a 100k loan then you should not do it. Professional aviation has been made accessible to the masses which has subsequently help bring us all to where we are today.
I fly with people who really should not be Pilots, or could not have been had so much cheap money been available.
The new chaps want everything straight away, straight out of school into a jet then it's "I will get my command in three years, get 1000 hours then its off to BA" I hear it all the time.
Until you chaps who shackling yourselves with a mountain of debt, then wonder why someone else takes advantage of you realise that you must stick up for yourself and your colleagues.
Nobody is blaming you for taking advantage of the only system there is, But the system of any tom or dick or leo hocking themseleves to he eyeballs leads to exploitation. Training is a nice little earner
I wrote a similar post to you a good few years back, about how great the job is how grateful I was to have a jet job, there are 100's of former cadets/low houred guys that know exactly how you feel and shared those very sentiments.
Just for the record many cannot get the tax back on type rating and Ryanairs rating is more expensive than a generic 738 rating, you are paying them a few grand back hander for the privalege of your rating and to enter Ryanairland
Mark my words D O Guerrero. That with time your opinion will change, sooner or later they will ruthlessly affect you, your contract, your basing or some part of your terms of employment, they will impose what they like at will and it will not be to your benefit,
Contrary to all the FR propagada 5/4 was given becuase it suited them to stop having pilots running out of hours and the IAA were leaning on them heavily to resolve the former rostering debacle or many doing 900 hours in 9-10 months.
They will only only ever take. Just enjoy the jet and routes and give it time.
Cadets just want to stay low and avoid confrontation, we know, we've been there. But inform yourself D O Guerrero, use that brain of yours that got you this far and make sure you protect yourself and your future.
and when the time comes vote to protect it, or else it will be all downhill from here.
Eager..
My point? I think you're making it for me. As to yours, I'm not sure what your're getting at really. Did you actually read what I wrote? Yes there are people who want it all now. But for everyone of those there are another 2 who are professional people quietly getting on with building their experience.
And who said I needed a loan? Please stop generalising...
We each have our own circumstances and reasons for working for Ryanair. Personally, it suits me perfectly. If it didn't, I'd leave. I've had more than my fair share of being messed about and treated like rubbish thanks. And thanks for the advice Eager, I'm quite capable of sticking up for myself when it matters.
Last edited by D O Guerrero : 14th June 2009 at 12:59.
Of course I read your post. Your post is sufficiently ambiguous for me to assume you are the same as most brookfield cadets. You talk about money you paid for training and how you cannot pass up the opportunity for a job.
You cannot "stick up for yourself" in Ryanair, it is impossible.
Most of the guys I fly with have said they have no intention of signing the petition and quite a few have removed their names. these are the guys who deserve a pat on the back for using their own brains to work out what is best for them , and why shouldn't they~!!!!!!!!!
Only to those beyond the reach of reason, Eagerbeaver1.
D O Guerrero's concise and clear-headed argument demolishes in one expertly constructed post, the nonsense advanced by those outside Ryanair who feel sufficiently threatened by our ongoing success, to offer up the sort of ill-considered, feather-headed bunkum that goes on in every related thread herein.
There are a couple of truths that need to be remembered. First of all, the reality of working for Ryanair is often at variance with the external perception of it. The reason for this is, broadly speaking, a combination of projecting the cabin experience, admittedly less than pleasant on occasion, into the cockpit environment, and professional jealousy.
As to the former, that negative perception is entirely wrong when it comes to our pilots. Ryanair pilots are among the most talented on earth, for the best of reasons since our operation demands it. One actually needs to know how to fly in Ryanair. Short runways, a multitude of non-precision approaches and the vagaries of the European winter demand it. Anyone who criticises cadet first officers for selling their souls to the devil, misses the most important half of their stories. We only the take the best of them, because experience has taught us that only the best of them will survive the demands of the training department, something that ALL Ryanair cadet pilots should be extremely proud of.
As to the latter, nobody like change. The most shrill of those who object to us at Ryanair are those with a hankering for the good old, bad old days when flying was the purview of those born among the higher branches of Europe's social tree. Similarly, they hunger for the days when only the wealthy could afford to fly. Paying £700 for a return flight from Dublin to London did lend itself to a higher class of person occupying our high-speed metal tubes, didn't it, but is it right that the sort of quality of life enhancement and affirmation that comes from readily accessible flying should be denied the majority? We don't think so. Neither do the 70 million passengers who will fly with us this year. We've made a great deal of money proving that point and created opportunity and employment for thousands in doing so.
There is, of course, a rather more sinister force at work, when addressing the perplexing question of just why it is that Ryanair attracts such negative attention here. There exists deep within the collective psyche of the British, a deep and abiding resentment of any Irish success. The fact that Ryanair is, proudly and loudly, and IRISH airline, rankles deep within the English soul, and gives voice to the lungs of that most peculiarly English of phenomena, vultures masquerading as birds of paradise.
Is Ryanair perfect? No, it isn't. Will BLAPA or the Irish Polyester Pygmy succeed in making it more perfect? Certainly not. Those, like I, who have been around long enough to know that unions seek to serve one principal master at the expense of all the others, will be able to entertain you all with fireside chats on the subject. You will find BLAPA are very adept at setting up standing orders and direct debit authorisations for your subscription fees of £1000 yearly, but grow strangely hard of hearing thereafter.
When deciding what to do with your hard-earned salaries, ladies and gentlemen of Ryanair, you may care to remember the hilarious spectacle, and dazzling fiesta of irony, reflected in the BLAPA staff members threatening to go on strike, lest their final salary pension schemes were guaranteed!
Quote:
GMB organiser Dave Kent accused Balpa of a "disgraceful case of hypocrisy".
Leo,I normally admire and occasionally buy into your persuasive and articulate defence(s) of Ryanair.I have been in this industry a long time (airline pilot) and would completely agree with the rationale that Ryanair has a high level of operational integrity backed up by their safety record.They/you are obviously not mugs.
Also,I semi-reluctantly can see some of your points ref Balpa;I have been in the union all my career but there have been times when the love affair from my side was definitely lukewarm.However,I find it truly astonishing that you invoke Irish history and British resentment over Ryanair's financial success as a reason for continued criticism of Ryanair.That point is totally fatuous and I am surprised that you have made it given your obvious intelligence.
Leo, despite my obvious admiration for your very complimentary comments regarding my posts... I have to say I don't quite agree with everything! My opinion of the Irish as a nation plays absolutely no part in what I think of Ryanair. And yes I am British...
And I should just say that just because I admire the achievements of the company as well as what it has given to me, it doesn't necessarily follow that I am opposed to BALPA and their aims. My gripe is with opiniated has-beens who feel that people like me shouldn't be in the club...
I note Leo Hairy Nazi's sense of irony relating to BALPA pension provision, noting the irony that he chooses to criticise the organisation for having a dispute with it's employees through their union.
The point is BALPA employees have a mechanism through which they can make their feelings to their employer plain, up to and including strike action, something that Ryanair pilots don't currently enjoy...
...a situation individuals such as Leo Hairy Nazi are fighting tooth and nail to continue. Go figure.
Barden
PS I note also that LHN and acolytes continue to suggest BALPA membership costs £1000/year. Ignoring tax relief available for a minute, I suspect it does for a lucky few - their BASIC salaries, the amount they are paid before sector pay, hourly allowances and overtime, must be over £100,000 per annum - in the UK at least, the only pilots who are in this fortunate situation are the lucky few of the most senior pilots for airlines that have long recoginsed BALPA, namely BA, Virgin and some of the better charter operators, certainly not anyone in FR!
Barden, If your a LTC, TRI or TRE You will easily make over £100,000 a year. Out TREs are on around £125,000. Ya most senior off....Virgin pay, don't make me laugh.
Are you really a regular line pilot or one of the management/associates on here to try and steer the argument away from BALPA.?
Anyone who used this to defend Ryanairs disatrous fuel hedging strategy which even MOL admitted was disatrous.
Quote:
Dont forget that he has hedged at higher price than most but only for a short period, while others have heded at a lower price than us but for a much longer perid, where as we will be unhedged at the lower price, sounds good to me. I'll still be at ryanair long after we've acquired Air lingus. and seen the biigies go bust!!!!!!!!
Anyone who wrote this in one of his posts about Michael O'Learys behaviour
Quote:
A brilliant guy, I'm glad he's my boss and not yours.
or this
Quote:
The man's a genius. thank god we've got him.
demands a very large pinch of salt. Hardly suprising the same person is trying to steer the argument away from BALPA.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt for now that you are not one of the management or their associated "union busters" that come on here to try and decieve and pretend its something different to what it is. Maybe just one of the monority of line pilots who are happy to align themselves with the dictatorial madness of the whitehouse as long as they do OK out of it.
They usually come on in bunches. "perhaps we should follow the IAA way and go through the courts" i.e try and turn people away from formal recognition.
"We have ascertained that BALPA is not the answer, so what is the answer" Try and disuade the undecided minority. Steer them away from genuine collective arrangements at any cost. The majority, either way have already decided.
I know for fact that most of the guys I fly with support the campaign to end the erosions and bring about a fair, open and honest culture.
I also know that contrary to your alleged few friends de-registering, the petition numbers are increasing weekly.
I am not telling you what your ideology should be, but non are not so stupid as to realise that people with vested interests populate these forums, with the only objective - to steer people away from the rights and formal recognition.
If you don't like BALPA don't vote, If you want change then vote.
Time will tell Pilot999 - but we are not writing threatening memos, nor do we feel threatened.
Leo HC - What was it you called me before a couple of months back "flactulance Fred".
As an LTC, even though the FR training standard is good, I do not agree with you that only the best get cadets get into Ryanair.
True only those that make the grade will survive, but the initial pre-requisite is "do you have a licence", "can you get the cash for rating", "can you pass the sim check". If the answer is Yes Yes and Yes you are in, especially with credit markets dry. I know as I was there at the turn of the century.
Last edited by Fightback Fred : 14th June 2009 at 18:01.
Barden, If your a LTC, TRI or TRE You will easily make over £100,000 a year. Out TREs are on around £125,000. Ya most senior off....Virgin pay, don't make me laugh.
You've misunderstood my point, which was BALPA subs are only paid on basic pay, not emoluments or flight pay etc, so for many FR pilots their BALPA subs are a fraction of the £1000 pa oft quoted by LHN & friends. Are you telling me any line or training pilot's basic salary (the amount they get paid if for example they are unable to work for a month if they are sick or have max'ed out on hours ) is anywhere near £100k pro rata?
As a point of information, in my airline many line pilots comfortably exceed £125,000 pa with flight pay and allowances factored in and those who chose to work hard and have picked up training qualifications earn nearer £200k. Both enjoy substantial pension provision and don't have to lose too much sleep about how they'd manage if they were unable to fly due to health issues. We are most definately a BALPA airline.
Myself, I chose to fly my roster and nothing more. I do this because I want to and because I can.
Anyway, enough of the willy waving. Good luck to all in FR who no longer want to be treated as the hired helps.
You hit the nail on the head only once in your last post and i quote "and pass the simulator".
The Sim check looks for the the crew member rather than just the handling skills, and over the last couple of years I have seen on average only 10 to 25% who attend the interviews pass.
It may once have been "can you pay ? Your In" but today the rules have changed and the crop of cadets although reduced through the credit crunch are of a very high standard.
How I know is not for this forum !!
To reach the grade and pass onto line flying the standards set within RYR are high, somewhat higher than many companies, due to the diversity of those employed, several of whom are not native English speakers.
BALPA are today trying to break into Ryanair and other non unionised airlines, not as may be assumed for the good of the employees but for the balance sheets of BALPA itself. (Look at their company cars and pension schemes which the membership pay for)
However BALPA is the only game in town for U.K. based airlines, but RYR is not U.K. based neither do they operate G-registered aircraft.
The employer therefore has no obligation to accept their dealings.
BALPA has asked their BA pilots to reduce their pay by up to £200 per week to avoid redundancies. (Who's T&C's are being eroded now)
Yet RYR are recruiting.
If those of you think a strike will make your point and improve things only have to look at Old King Coal and the miners strike.
Now there is only a shadow of the former UK coal industry.
You may cause some chaos for while but, remember that bills mortgages etc must be paid, and with no income and ultimately no job how long can you survive on your principles.
If our industry is to survive this recession then cost cuts should be negotiated based upon a fixed date for any reductions in the T & C's to be re-instated.
"If our industry is to survive this recession then cost cuts should be negotiated based upon a fixed date for any reductions in the T & C's to be re-instated"
RYR is not U.K. based neither do they operate G-registered aircraft.
The employer therefore has no obligation to accept their [BALPA's] dealings.
Forget aircraft states of registration for a moment. In fact forget aircraft. Ryanair employs a substantial number of individuals in the UK, therefore is subject to UK employment law, which provides for statuary union recognition if necessary.
Also, you mention BALPA company cars. By pure consistence, I've just read on their website that they're selling one. An 8 year old Vauxhall Astra with an ignition problem if you're interested
Vexed: DD's comment which you quoted is spot on. That is exactly what is happening in at least one major UK airline right now, that is to say a small amount of non-pensionable money is been forfeited by mutual consent for a defined period, after which without further agreement the status quo will return. This is how a mature management & union can deal with a complex issue in these difficult times.
I will have to accept your point on the actual sim check as I am not privvy to it. However I do recall a certain man who now works at Brookfield, being on his phone as I walked through the door, spending most of the interview on the phone, then simply asking me "have you got the money".
Quote:
If those of you think a strike will make your point and improve things only have to look at Old King Coal and the miners strike.
Who is saying daydreamer anything about a strike??
Pilots just want to play an active part in meaningful negotitations (and don't bother saying we have ERC's, we all know the reality ), to do their jobs and to have their terms left alone.
The British Airline pilots ASSOCIATION, is needed as a professional body, because that is not happening, despite employment laws. People are subject to intimidatory practices, and your contract means squat. Your terms are simply what FR decide they will give you this month, regardless of contracts. They have removed plenty of contracted conditions at will. It is only this I believe many pilots seek to end.
Of course if MOL insists on unreleting hardball, then every option, (of which today there are non), should be thought through.
off. Their words. We'll get someone else in & give them the base they want for slightly less pay and replace you.
Come, gentle bombs.
) is anywhere near £100k pro rata?
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