Terms and EndearmentThe forum the beancounters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work. Let others in the industry make educated choices on where the grass is less brown! Scheduled, charter or contract -
Thanks Chocks, I knew someone had to think like me! The maths isn't difficult really, 150k for a job you hate, or 100k for a job you love? I know which one I'm going for.
Ghandou...Sorry to sound like a damp squib, but I really would think twice about changing jobs. Many of us do like our flying jobs, but read my post above and realise I'm very lucky. Much like yourself in you job. It took me about 10 years to get where I am. I am able to pick the days I work and more or less where I go. I was lucky to be able to put up with all the crap when I was young and single. If you have a family, being junior in an airline will bring a lot of stress on you and your family.Try putting up with it whilst paying for your type rating and living on 30K a year. If you are lucky and land a plum job, you may pull in 100K after 10 years, but will be tired earning it. You will probably be away from home for much of it.
As a previous poster mentioned, I would swap jobs with you tomorrow and I'm a 777 pilot working 14 days a month. There really is more to life than flying aeroplanes. Work to live.
Captain of a UK breakfast radio show. 4 hours per day on air, a couple of hours preparation time - Mon-Fri, 2 hours on Sunday. No pension, 4 weeks a year off paid + bank holidays in lieu if worked. Two year contract. No guarantee of renewal. Approx £4500 gross, do my own tax so put as many costs into my return as possible. Gotta rush, I need some more gold-plated paperclips @ £50 each.....
Last edited by reverserunlocked : 28th August 2008 at 12:57.
I've reached a similar conclusion. My salary as a police Inspector puts me on a par with what a Captain with Flybe earns in their first few years of command.
I could afford the training. The killer is earning nowt whilst you do it, plus a paycut, and let's not mention giving up the pension of two thirds final salary on retirement at 51. Add the current job market in to the mix and it's not a goer.
I have a mad idea I could do my ATPL when I retire. Arguably I could give an company such as Flybe/Eastern/similar up to 9 years service. Too old for a second career?
Realistically? I would say it depends on the job market when it comes to retirement. If someone was applying NOW at that stage, prospects may be slim. As an older applicant myself (but not yet 51 ) I would advise you to think what about you're prepared to sacrifice to obtain your fATPL. Financial security is a huge part of the problem, so if that's sorted, then it may be worth a punt. I've talked to a few guys within the regionals (Eastern, bmi, Titan etc) and tsome do seem to look favourably on the 2nd-career types, so who knows.
I think you didn't understand XXPLOD. In his profile he says he is 32, it's just that he mentioned that as police inspector he hits retirement at 51.
Well... just my humble opinion, but... in your case... probably you are still on time to change career but... if you have a good salary and don't hate your present job, why risking?
I don't know... I'm 25, started integrated ATPL at 18. I'm currently working as instructor and I love the job, and I think that I have good chances of joining an airline in 1-2-3 years, and meanwhile keep on instructing, but... sometimes I wonder if it wouldn't have been a better idea to do as some of my friends: get an university degree, eventually find a good job and just fly on the weekends for the fun of it.
Well... getting back on topic:
Flight instructor in Phoenix, AZ with European school. US$1800/month (circa 1200 Euro/month) netto. Accomodation is paid (nice shared apartment, in a complex with pool, gym and spa) and 2x economy tickets/yr (return) to that place called home. 80-90hrs/month flying.
Second year pay gets a lot better (around $2500/E1600), plus $10k bonus on 24th month being part of the family.
Pay on first year isn't that great because they pay your FAA licenses plus salary meanwhile you get them.
I absolutely love the place and the company. Decent airplanes (I'm not such a Piper fan, dunno why), great maintenance, generous effort on flight safety and staff/management are great people. I can't complain!
Only you can decide what is good for you. I did it 1 year ago, with 2kids and a stablr life, decent earnings. I new I wanted to fly since early childhood.
Making the decision was hard, first few weeks I felt maybe I had made a mistake.
Now I wouldn't change my flying job for anything. Sometimes I even wonder if it happens for real, flying i nice shiny business jet to wonderful places.
Good luck and may I suggest that you listen to yourself for the best advice !
IMveryHO... is it worth so much effort and risk for just a job? If we like flying (myself included)... why isn't/wasn't enough to get a PPL and fly for fun on weekends?
And honestly... financially, for me, so far, has been a kick in the b@lls, and I guess for the average person is the same situation. How long does it take until you break even, in the lucky scenario that you find a good job? For me... it will take around 5-6 yrs more (if I'm lucky) (10-12 yrs in total since I got the license). Maybe if I took another path... yes... I would not like my job so much, but... I would be able to go on holidays, have a new car (instead of a '91) and mostly... wouldn't have the weight of such a huge amount of money so young.
I don't mean to put-off anyone with this but... my experience so far has been quite negative, and yes... now I like my job, but wasn't worth all that I had to go through IMHO. You can reach other jobs with good lifestyle other ways.
Sorry for hijacking the thread, but I think it's better to give a reasonably negative version of the story in these cases, along with the positive thoughts.
If i earned what you do now even with a zero or two added i would drop it all in an instant for what i do now.
Too many people on this site who are not in LOVE enough with what they do or flying hasnt lived up to what they expected and expect others to be as downbeat and negative as they are.
Go for it
Its better to be up there looking down wondering whats down below than looking up wishing you were there.
Sure the industry is shakey sure you might not get a job straight away on falling out of flying school....you might not even ever get a job but at least you would have tried.
Here's an example of what you'd be missing.
Took off the other night from Gatwick on a brookmans park departure to Iceland. It was a beautifly clear night and was given an early left turn right over the centre of london. WHAT A VIEW The london eye Leicester Square Buckingham Place the river thames you name we could see it. Further north a beautiful moon rise that started a deep red colour and just got brighter. going further north we chased what little light was left for nearly three hours and the stars and milky way were stunning.
Thats just the views. The thrill of standing up the throttles and hurtling down a concrete strip and hoofing it off the deck into busy airspace to then try and grease it at the other end is better than.....well......SEX (almost)
Ghandou
You have a choice, go for it or not. Which ever you chose just make sure that you really want it. If you dont then a life of possibly saying I wish I... I wonder what.....What would I..... untill the day you die.
If you do then note it aint gonna be easy either passing the course or getting a job but when you do F**k me its worth it.
I wish you the very best of luck and from a personal point of view and some friendly advice JUST DO IT you wont regret it for a second.
The thrill of standing up the throttles and hurtling down a concrete strip and hoofing it off the deck into busy airspace to then try and grease it at the other end is better than.....well......SEX (almost)
I agree completely, but isn't it the same flying a nice 172 a saturday or sunday with a few buddies?
Maybe you should find another partner for the sex thing, I don't think too much people would agree with you on that one!
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Sure the industry is shakey sure you might not get a job straight away on falling out of flying school....you might not even ever get a job but at least you would have tried.
Are you being realistic or negative?
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Too many people on this site who are not in LOVE enough with what they do or flying hasnt lived up to what they expected and expect others to be as downbeat and negative as they are.
I hope you don't say it because of what I said. I love flying, I have a good time (many of us do), but I just say it isn't sooooo goooood as to go through such finnancial difficulties and so much trouble. What's bad about having a PPL and flying for fun on days off?
Besides... someone that doesn't content himself with his present career and his own life is someone negative enough by himself. Do you think he will be able to put up with all the difficulties of becoming a pilot and finding a job? Don't you think that warning him would be a good idea?
I agree completely, but isn't it the same flying a nice 172 a saturday or sunday with a few buddies?
Not in the slightest. In a 172 et al YOUR paying the bills. In a commercial job someones paying you and with a reasonable career path quite handsomely
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Are you being realistic or negative?
If you highlighted the last bit of the post you will notice but at least you would have tried. and that really is the crux of my argument. Surely its better to go through life saying at least i gave it a shot. I'm very aware that the state of our industry is in the shite and have known people who tried and either gave up or never got a foot in the door but they can go to their grave never wondering what if i took that first step. So i would like to think that im being realisticaly positive.
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What's bad about having a PPL and flying for fun on days off?
There's nothing bad about flying for fun on a PPL and for some that is all they want to do and i say good luck.
For others they want to fly above the clouds (up to FL410 in my machine which id like to see a 172 do) or on bad wx days or across the oceans for a few days off on a beach or work with fellow professionals including cabin crew. Dealing with the many manifold problems that working for an airline can bring. Flying something bigger than a four seater with one engine or for the simple pleasure as mentioned earlier of someone else paying for your hobby.
The list is endless of the pleasures of flying commercially and im fully aware that someone will come along and give a thousand reasons why its bad. But to them i say i dont care as the problems are only challenges to be overcome and if you hate it that mouch you obviously are in the wrong job. Move and and give the likes of Ghandou a shot and an oportunity to moan if he want.
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I hope you don't say it because of what I said
Not at all. Its a general statement from what ive read on PPRuNe and what i've seen out and about. For some their expectations of flying are never met as the dream is sometimes let down by the reality. If thats the case then i say move on. For some the money is never enough the cc aren't putting out or the uniform is rubbish or the hotels are crap etc etc etc. The moaners in this game are never happy and all they like is the sound of their own voice whining and moaning but never come up with the answer to a problem.
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Maybe you should find another partner for the sex thing, I don't think too much people would agree with you on that one!
I did say almost Even tough my missus thinks im having an affair with my a/c. Sad i know but i am an AEROsexual.
£2200pm take home working about 65 hours per week when you include travelling to work and back. Wish I had the money to train to do what you guys do as i'm damn sure that I would love your job more than I do mine.
Last edited by Pilotinmydreams : 2nd September 2008 at 18:00.
South African Contractor: Capt B190C Kabul, Afghanistan £32400pa or £2700pm 4months off a year. No benefits - except for flying at 20ft of the deck down the Afghan Highway through the desert.
) I would advise you to think what about you're prepared to sacrifice to obtain your fATPL. Financial security is a huge part of the problem, so if that's sorted, then it may be worth a punt. I've talked to a few guys within the regionals (Eastern, bmi, Titan etc) and tsome do seem to look favourably on the 2nd-career types, so who knows.
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