how to stop pax taking hand luggage in evacuation?
To prevent crashes, what we - who pay you peasants your wages - really need is far harsher, and probably collective punishments for failing crew.
A failing magenta line follower isn't just a magenta line follower which knows it's too tired, or too emo but clocks in for work anyway.
A failing magenta line follower is a magenta line follower or other airline thing that knows - or is in a position to know - that the other magenta line follower is too tired or ill or emo or psycho, but doesn't call it out.
So when something like Germanwings 9525 happens, we, as the folk who pay your wages, need to know that not just the perp's family will be destitute and out on the street, but that will also happen to all the folk who knew the perp, but didn't say anything.
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Do you get this objectification thing yet ?
You could try looking up "in-groups" and "out-groups".
A couple non-aviation articles you might want to look at below. They might seem a bit tangential, but I'm not so sure.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-report-cycle/
https://hbr.org/2015/02/why-debunkin...ubious-parents
Thing is, lots of passengers don't want loads of carry-on. But you peasants steal, break, disappear, delay, or just ship to some other random destination checked stuff, so we have to carry on stuff we'd rather put in the hold. If it's important, and can't be carried on, we have to use Fedex or a private flight.
A failing magenta line follower isn't just a magenta line follower which knows it's too tired, or too emo but clocks in for work anyway.
A failing magenta line follower is a magenta line follower or other airline thing that knows - or is in a position to know - that the other magenta line follower is too tired or ill or emo or psycho, but doesn't call it out.
So when something like Germanwings 9525 happens, we, as the folk who pay your wages, need to know that not just the perp's family will be destitute and out on the street, but that will also happen to all the folk who knew the perp, but didn't say anything.
---
Do you get this objectification thing yet ?
You could try looking up "in-groups" and "out-groups".
A couple non-aviation articles you might want to look at below. They might seem a bit tangential, but I'm not so sure.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-report-cycle/
https://hbr.org/2015/02/why-debunkin...ubious-parents
Thing is, lots of passengers don't want loads of carry-on. But you peasants steal, break, disappear, delay, or just ship to some other random destination checked stuff, so we have to carry on stuff we'd rather put in the hold. If it's important, and can't be carried on, we have to use Fedex or a private flight.
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Originally Posted by MurphyWasRight
If not already ( probably is ) make it illegal to take carry on with you in evacuation.
That by itself does little but the announcement that in the unlikely event of an evacuation all carry on found outside the airplane will be confiscated as part of the criminal investigation would make people think.
Could add a bit of sugar by stating that returned carry on after evac would have a $100 reward attached to it.
If not already ( probably is ) make it illegal to take carry on with you in evacuation.
That by itself does little but the announcement that in the unlikely event of an evacuation all carry on found outside the airplane will be confiscated as part of the criminal investigation would make people think.
Could add a bit of sugar by stating that returned carry on after evac would have a $100 reward attached to it.
cooperplace is offline
Old 12th Aug 2016, 10:44
Tourist
1. You will need to make this a law in all countries. Good luck with that.
2. Do you think the law will find it possible to prosecute passengers acting under the stress of an aircraft crash? Good luck with that
Tourist
1. You will need to make this a law in all countries. Good luck with that.
2. Do you think the law will find it possible to prosecute passengers acting under the stress of an aircraft crash? Good luck with that
2: No need to actually prosecute the passengers, just impound the "evidence" for a week or two with maybe a $1000 fine to get it back.
Only apply it to items that clearly would fit only in overhead, underseat items such as purses and the like are much less likely to be a real threat.
The goal is just to make it less convenient to take it with you than leave it in the overhead.
As others have pointed out humans are actually quite good at making rational decisions based on available facts.
Humans are appallingly bad at
Unless Bayesian reasoning was a significant part of their education.
Today's magenta line followers are a bit like 1980's coalminers. They'll be obsolete in a few years, and we'll all be safer.
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Umm, no. I guess it depends on what you mean by "rational".
Unless Bayesian reasoning was a significant part of their education.
Humans are appallingly bad at
Originally Posted by MurphyWasRight View Post
making rational decisions based on available facts.
Originally Posted by MurphyWasRight View Post
making rational decisions based on available facts.
Should also change $1000 fine to read $1000 fine/processing fee/bribe depending on the destination. Just the thought of dealing with local authorities might be enough of a deterrent.
Something Must Be Done
This is one of those "something must be done" arguments.
This particular kind of "something must be done" argument goes like this:
<Outgroup X> does Y. Y is bad. <Outgroup X> must be punished.
For <Outgroup X> insert the appropriate perjorative term -
for example: kikes, dykes, New Yorkers, pakis, slopes, liberals, magenta line followers, ...
It's not so important whether Y really is bad or not. Or if <Outgroup X> really does do Y.
Whether the threat of punishment will stop <Outgroup X> doing Y doesn't even enter the argument.
The important thing is simply to bully and abuse <Outgroup X>, or anyone else that you feel like bullying, on the pretext that they somewhat resemble <Outgroup X>.
That works both ways: a really good Nazi didn't have to worry about being jewish - that could be swept under the carpet.
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Let's suppose you actually want to make scheduled flights safer.
Then you need to look at where injuries and fatalities come from. Analyse the statistics.
It's not 1953 - we don't have Comets exploding in mid-air for no apparent reason every few months.
It's mostly human factors now: CRM, fatigue, training, management pressure.
That's for the maintenance folk, as well as the pilots. A tired engineer working overtime on an overloaded night shift on a task they're not experienced with can kill people quite effectively.
Mercifully, we now have so few crashes that statistics cease to be so helpful - we have to analyse each incident separately, as well as look at statistics.
If we do that, I don't think we're going to find that what passengers do with carry-on baggage in an evacuation is causing any fatalities at all.
Aircraft certification requires 90 second evacuation. Perhaps certification would be more realistic if some proportion of the test subjects took luggage with them.
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But given that travel on scheduled flights (don't do a Patsy Klein or a Buddy Holly) is so safe now, does it even make sense to worry about safety of air travel ?
Aren't there more important things to worry about ?
In the US, maybe you could ask:
This particular kind of "something must be done" argument goes like this:
<Outgroup X> does Y. Y is bad. <Outgroup X> must be punished.
For <Outgroup X> insert the appropriate perjorative term -
for example: kikes, dykes, New Yorkers, pakis, slopes, liberals, magenta line followers, ...
It's not so important whether Y really is bad or not. Or if <Outgroup X> really does do Y.
Whether the threat of punishment will stop <Outgroup X> doing Y doesn't even enter the argument.
The important thing is simply to bully and abuse <Outgroup X>, or anyone else that you feel like bullying, on the pretext that they somewhat resemble <Outgroup X>.
That works both ways: a really good Nazi didn't have to worry about being jewish - that could be swept under the carpet.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's suppose you actually want to make scheduled flights safer.
Then you need to look at where injuries and fatalities come from. Analyse the statistics.
It's not 1953 - we don't have Comets exploding in mid-air for no apparent reason every few months.
It's mostly human factors now: CRM, fatigue, training, management pressure.
That's for the maintenance folk, as well as the pilots. A tired engineer working overtime on an overloaded night shift on a task they're not experienced with can kill people quite effectively.
Mercifully, we now have so few crashes that statistics cease to be so helpful - we have to analyse each incident separately, as well as look at statistics.
If we do that, I don't think we're going to find that what passengers do with carry-on baggage in an evacuation is causing any fatalities at all.
Aircraft certification requires 90 second evacuation. Perhaps certification would be more realistic if some proportion of the test subjects took luggage with them.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But given that travel on scheduled flights (don't do a Patsy Klein or a Buddy Holly) is so safe now, does it even make sense to worry about safety of air travel ?
Aren't there more important things to worry about ?
In the US, maybe you could ask:
- Why there are so many gun-related deaths - perhaps compared to other developed countries with high firearm possession such as Germany and Switzerland. (Germany has large numbers of illegal weapons from WW2 and the Balkan wars as well as registered weapons - granny might have a medium machine gun and a few unstable anti-tank missiles in her loft).
- Why are there so many road traffic deaths compared to other developed countries ? Germany has no mandatory speed limit on 2/3 of its Autobahn network, but german roads are about twice as safe.
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No overhead storage of anything other than pillows, blankets or soft articles of clothing (coats, hats, etc) would eliminate the need for doors.
The emergency evacuation qualification test procedures should also be revised to take into account a large percentage of passengers ignoring the exit instructions they were given prior to take-off and the significant delay this creates. Take a look at this video of the emergency evacuation qual test for the A380. One thing you'll clearly note is that not a single passenger stops to grab baggage from the overheads, or is even carrying anything like a purse or laptop case during the procedure. Compare that to the situation shown in this video of the recent 777 accident.
The emergency evacuation qualification test procedures should also be revised to take into account a large percentage of passengers ignoring the exit instructions they were given prior to take-off and the significant delay this creates. Take a look at this video of the emergency evacuation qual test for the A380. One thing you'll clearly note is that not a single passenger stops to grab baggage from the overheads, or is even carrying anything like a purse or laptop case during the procedure. Compare that to the situation shown in this video of the recent 777 accident.
Thread Starter
No overhead storage of anything other than pillows, blankets or soft articles of clothing (coats, hats, etc) would eliminate the need for doors.
The emergency evacuation qualification test procedures should also be revised to take into account a large percentage of passengers ignoring the exit instructions they were given prior to take-off and the significant delay this creates. Take a look at this video of the emergency evacuation qual test for the A380. One thing you'll clearly note is that not a single passenger stops to grab baggage from the overheads, or is even carrying anything like a purse or laptop case during the procedure. Compare that to the situation shown in this video of the recent 777 accident.
The emergency evacuation qualification test procedures should also be revised to take into account a large percentage of passengers ignoring the exit instructions they were given prior to take-off and the significant delay this creates. Take a look at this video of the emergency evacuation qual test for the A380. One thing you'll clearly note is that not a single passenger stops to grab baggage from the overheads, or is even carrying anything like a purse or laptop case during the procedure. Compare that to the situation shown in this video of the recent 777 accident.
Thread Starter
in vaccination theory there is the concept of herd immunity: when enough people are immune, epidemics can't spread. maybe we could use the term "herd common sense": you don't need everyone to have common sense, just nearly everyone, and that will drive everyone's behavior.
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If you look at the video of the 777 accident, it is clear that most of the passengers ignored the emergency evacuation instructions. It was not just 10% of them.
The only way to change the natural selfish behavior of humans in emergency situations is to impose on them some form of penalty for non-compliance that encourages them to follow the rules.
The only way to change the natural selfish behavior of humans in emergency situations is to impose on them some form of penalty for non-compliance that encourages them to follow the rules.
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These people are under utterly abnormal stress. Probably more than 99.999% will ever experience. They are not rational.
They will not have time to think about consequences of prosecution. They are in a crash and don't know if they are going to live through the next minute, and yet they still take bags. Do you really think that a threat of possible prosecution is going to affect the situation?
They will not have time to think about consequences of prosecution. They are in a crash and don't know if they are going to live through the next minute, and yet they still take bags. Do you really think that a threat of possible prosecution is going to affect the situation?
Thread Starter
If you look at the video of the 777 accident, it is clear that most of the passengers ignored the emergency evacuation instructions. It was not just 10% of them.
The only way to change the natural selfish behavior of humans in emergency situations is to impose on them some form of penalty for non-compliance that encourages them to follow the rules.
The only way to change the natural selfish behavior of humans in emergency situations is to impose on them some form of penalty for non-compliance that encourages them to follow the rules.
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My point was to use the threat of prosecution to convince pax that they would loose their bags -if- they took them with them. the bag going to 'jail' as evidence would suffice, totally agree prosecuting someone who was in a plane wreck would not be done.
That would change the "rational" decision to the safe one for all.
That would change the "rational" decision to the safe one for all.
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the best approach is carrot AND stick.
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100% agree; the safety briefing is part but not the only part of that education program. All sorts of information can get embedded into the public consciousness,and there's no reason why "you don't take your luggage when evacuating" couldn't also get into people's minds.
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cooperplace, you are in a dream-world.
Passengers come from all over the world, including countries where just trying to get people to queue is impossible and seatbelts are unheard of.
If you really think that it is possible to make all these disparate groups of people leave their bags you are delusional.
I have yet to see a single airline that has successfully managed to make all passengers stay sitting down after landing, and that happens every flight.
Pax behaving in accordance with some plan in incredibly rare circumstance like a crash is never going to happen even if there is a world famous disaster where the pax all die because of it. It simply wont reach the consciousness of half the passengers.
Passengers come from all over the world, including countries where just trying to get people to queue is impossible and seatbelts are unheard of.
If you really think that it is possible to make all these disparate groups of people leave their bags you are delusional.
I have yet to see a single airline that has successfully managed to make all passengers stay sitting down after landing, and that happens every flight.
Pax behaving in accordance with some plan in incredibly rare circumstance like a crash is never going to happen even if there is a world famous disaster where the pax all die because of it. It simply wont reach the consciousness of half the passengers.
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100% agree; the safety briefing is part but not the only part of that education program. All sorts of information can get embedded into the public consciousness,and there's no reason why "you don't take your luggage when evacuating" couldn't also get into people's minds.
"if you take your luggage it will be impounded and at best it will be weeks and a hefty fine to get it back; if you leave it on board it will likely be returned within hours"
Best way to get it in to people's minds is to implement the confiscate/impound carry on rule and then the first couple of times it happens make sure that the complaints from people whose carry on was confiscated on the tarmac are widely aired along side the "you were warned" explanations.
Most evacs (fortunately) end up being precautionary and I suspect many pax are aware of that, even when the result is bad as in the recent event it may not be obvious to those on board -when making the decision- to grab bags.
That is why focusing on the safety issues is not all that effective since the danger is somewhat theoretical.
An interesting statistic would be % of passengers grabbing bags while leaving the miracle on the hudson landing where it was likely obvious to most that it was a true time critical emergency.
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It's not that passengers ignoring emergency evacuation procedures present a danger to themselves, it's the hazard they create for everyone else. Consider the numerous examples where a single obnoxious drunk passenger is physically restrained by the crew, and the flight makes an emergency landing at the nearest airport. The drunk guy is arrested and charged with a federal felony criminal offense for creating a danger to the other passengers on the flight. How is this any different than someone ignoring the instructions they were given during an emergency evacuation?
Thread Starter
cooperplace, you are in a dream-world.
Passengers come from all over the world, including countries where just trying to get people to queue is impossible and seatbelts are unheard of.
If you really think that it is possible to make all these disparate groups of people leave their bags you are delusional.
I have yet to see a single airline that has successfully managed to make all passengers stay sitting down after landing, and that happens every flight.
Pax behaving in accordance with some plan in incredibly rare circumstance like a crash is never going to happen even if there is a world famous disaster where the pax all die because of it. It simply wont reach the consciousness of half the passengers.
Passengers come from all over the world, including countries where just trying to get people to queue is impossible and seatbelts are unheard of.
If you really think that it is possible to make all these disparate groups of people leave their bags you are delusional.
I have yet to see a single airline that has successfully managed to make all passengers stay sitting down after landing, and that happens every flight.
Pax behaving in accordance with some plan in incredibly rare circumstance like a crash is never going to happen even if there is a world famous disaster where the pax all die because of it. It simply wont reach the consciousness of half the passengers.