Is it me or is this company procedure . . . . odd?
Thread Starter
Is it me or is this company procedure . . . . odd?
I have just joined airline number 6 on the bus as always and would like to get some input into an odd procedure they employ.
I know all airlines have these, this particular carrier is a good one and I aint complaining but it’s a procedure that really bugs me.
This is the only airline I have worked for that has no sterile cockpit during takeoff.
In fact, they leave the intercom open so that any cabin crew can buzz the cockpit any time in an emergency.
The topic came up in CRM discussion and all long serving employees agreed that they like the idea of having a crew member contact them at ANY time during the takeoff roll in case of cabin fire.
My view is that it would be virtually impossible for a new, junior, untrained and unbriefed cabin crewmember to call and convey a clear and accurate message in the time between 80 knots and V1. I can just see a high speed abort caused by dry ice!!!!
Most crews agreed that they would abort at any speed below V1 simply upon hearing the call from the cabin.
This is effectively deputizing a cabin crewmember to make the go no go decision, a call not even the FO is permitted to make.
Thoughts? Input.
I am open to suggestion.
I know all airlines have these, this particular carrier is a good one and I aint complaining but it’s a procedure that really bugs me.
This is the only airline I have worked for that has no sterile cockpit during takeoff.
In fact, they leave the intercom open so that any cabin crew can buzz the cockpit any time in an emergency.
The topic came up in CRM discussion and all long serving employees agreed that they like the idea of having a crew member contact them at ANY time during the takeoff roll in case of cabin fire.
My view is that it would be virtually impossible for a new, junior, untrained and unbriefed cabin crewmember to call and convey a clear and accurate message in the time between 80 knots and V1. I can just see a high speed abort caused by dry ice!!!!
Most crews agreed that they would abort at any speed below V1 simply upon hearing the call from the cabin.
This is effectively deputizing a cabin crewmember to make the go no go decision, a call not even the FO is permitted to make.
Thoughts? Input.
I am open to suggestion.
sterile cockpit during takeoff
FAR 121.542 / FAR 135.100--Flight Crew Member Duties
(a) No certificate holder shall require, nor may any flight crew member perform any duties during a critical phase of flight except those duties required for the safe operation of the aircraft. Duties such as company required calls made for non-safety related purposes as ordering galley supplies and confirming passenger connections, announcements made to passengers promoting the air carrier or pointing out sights of interest and filling out company payroll and related records are not required for the safe operation of the aircraft.
(b) No flight crew member may engage in, nor may any pilot in command permit, any activity during a critical phase of flight which could distract any flight crew member from the performance of his or her duties or which could interfere in any way with the proper conduct of those duties. Activities such as eating meals, engaging in non-essential conversations within the cockpit and non-essential communications between the cabin and cockpit crews, and reading publications not related to the proper conduct of the flight are not required for the safe operation of the aircraft.
(c) For the purposes of this section, critical phase of flight involves all ground operations involving taxi, takeoff and landing, and all other flight operations conducted below 10,000 feet, except cruise flight.
(a) No certificate holder shall require, nor may any flight crew member perform any duties during a critical phase of flight except those duties required for the safe operation of the aircraft. Duties such as company required calls made for non-safety related purposes as ordering galley supplies and confirming passenger connections, announcements made to passengers promoting the air carrier or pointing out sights of interest and filling out company payroll and related records are not required for the safe operation of the aircraft.
(b) No flight crew member may engage in, nor may any pilot in command permit, any activity during a critical phase of flight which could distract any flight crew member from the performance of his or her duties or which could interfere in any way with the proper conduct of those duties. Activities such as eating meals, engaging in non-essential conversations within the cockpit and non-essential communications between the cabin and cockpit crews, and reading publications not related to the proper conduct of the flight are not required for the safe operation of the aircraft.
(c) For the purposes of this section, critical phase of flight involves all ground operations involving taxi, takeoff and landing, and all other flight operations conducted below 10,000 feet, except cruise flight.
A call about a fire in the cabin would appear to be essential...just my opinion.
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I don't think he was saying that he didn't care about a cabin fire. I think his concern is a less experienced FA calling the cockpit at 100kts for something which may turn out to be unimportant.
That being said, most briefings I've seen/done here will tell the FA to call whenever, sterile or not. I think most understand this to mean while we're airborne. The OP does raise an interesting point though.
Personally, I've only had one FA call below 10k, and that was a medical issue. Perhaps they're taught not to call between the start of the TO roll and gear up, unless it's a dire situation?
OP, remember that the FA may indeed call near V1. It'll then be your decision to answer. Regardless of the outcome, I doubt many people would criticize you for not answering.
That being said, most briefings I've seen/done here will tell the FA to call whenever, sterile or not. I think most understand this to mean while we're airborne. The OP does raise an interesting point though.
Personally, I've only had one FA call below 10k, and that was a medical issue. Perhaps they're taught not to call between the start of the TO roll and gear up, unless it's a dire situation?
OP, remember that the FA may indeed call near V1. It'll then be your decision to answer. Regardless of the outcome, I doubt many people would criticize you for not answering.
Sterile Flight Deck - Rule or Principle
The issue relates to either relying on a rule to improve safety or the application of a safety principle.
The former is based on the belief that humans can be constrained, and if the rule is broken then the human can be blamed, whereas the situation is actually a failure of the belief. This view may also result in poor training – “we have a rule, no need to train beyond that” – ‘untrained and unbriefed cabin crewmember’.
The latter, uses human skill to apply a principle which encourages the human to be aware of the situation and judge actions with disciplined thought.
“We design work processes designed to protect workers based on a worldview that we rarely reflect on and in the process we create self-fulfilling prophecies that serve no purpose except to confirm that worldview. For example, when we see people as untrustworthy and as a problem to control, we design systems based on this worldview – rules, procedures, zero tolerance rules, incentive programs, behavior-based safety. Although intended to help workers be “safe”, none of this is designed to help workers do their jobs and often they simply make the work more difficult. As a result we see violations, sneaky behaviors (such as underreporting) and distrust. This confirms our initial suspicions, our theory has been confirmed and therefore the solution is simple – tighter controls. We must protect you, from you, in spite of you. The vicious cycle continues.”
“… understand that the problem is not the people, but the system created based upon our false assumptions.”
“… change perspective.”
http://www.safetydifferently.com/the...ork-is-broken/
http://www.safetydifferently.com/if-...or-the-people/
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You need to define what you mean by "no sterile cockpit". Are your CC calling you during the T/O roll to chat? Do they walk into the cockpit at 5000ft in busy terminal airspace to "see how you guys are doing"? Or does your company define sterile cockpit to mean "you must never contact the crew no matter whay"
Like Check Airman said, sterile or not any FA should if he or she suspects a fire, call the cockpit immediately. Sterile just means no disturbances EXCEPT for emergencies. Having the Crew Intercom turned on and with volume up simply ensures that if you do here the buzzer during T/O there is a step you can skip, if anything this isn't such a bad thing. My company insists on a sterile cockpit, but if the PM heard the buzzer I'm sure he would answer the call.
The reality is just go with it. If you're passing 100kts and you suddenly hear someone screaming "FIRE" in your ear, reject the take-off, and let the company deal with it. They are the ones that insisted on this procedure. They must trust their CC a lot and believe that at the end of the day having this open line of communication is a good thing. If it turns out that it was nothing more than dry ice then so be it, its the companies problem, not yours.
Just on a side note, how experienced are the crew in your company? Especially the guys and girls in the back. Whats the average age of the most senior of the guy/girl in the back.
Like Check Airman said, sterile or not any FA should if he or she suspects a fire, call the cockpit immediately. Sterile just means no disturbances EXCEPT for emergencies. Having the Crew Intercom turned on and with volume up simply ensures that if you do here the buzzer during T/O there is a step you can skip, if anything this isn't such a bad thing. My company insists on a sterile cockpit, but if the PM heard the buzzer I'm sure he would answer the call.
The reality is just go with it. If you're passing 100kts and you suddenly hear someone screaming "FIRE" in your ear, reject the take-off, and let the company deal with it. They are the ones that insisted on this procedure. They must trust their CC a lot and believe that at the end of the day having this open line of communication is a good thing. If it turns out that it was nothing more than dry ice then so be it, its the companies problem, not yours.
Just on a side note, how experienced are the crew in your company? Especially the guys and girls in the back. Whats the average age of the most senior of the guy/girl in the back.
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FAR 121.542 / FAR 135.100--Flight Crew Member Duties
(a) No certificate holder shall require, nor may any flight crew member perform any duties during a critical phase of flight except those duties required for the safe operation of the aircraft. Duties such as company required calls made for non-safety related purposes as ordering galley supplies and confirming passenger connections, announcements made to passengers promoting the air carrier or pointing out sights of interest and filling out company payroll and related records are not required for the safe operation of the aircraft.
(b) No flight crew member may engage in, nor may any pilot in command permit, any activity during a critical phase of flight which could distract any flight crew member from the performance of his or her duties or which could interfere in any way with the proper conduct of those duties. Activities such as eating meals, engaging in non-essential conversations within the cockpit and non-essential communications between the cabin and cockpit crews, and reading publications not related to the proper conduct of the flight are not required for the safe operation of the aircraft.
(c) For the purposes of this section, critical phase of flight involves all ground operations involving taxi, takeoff and landing, and all other flight operations conducted below 10,000 feet, except cruise flight.
Sounds all very common sense. I often fly with a major EU national carrier and am astonished at their PA procedures. They always make trip news PA's in the climb, before CRZ, and always seem to make an arrival PA just AFTER TOD. The other day we even had the captain make a 'sorry for the delay in takeoff' PA while lined up on the active RWY waiting for takeoff clearance. There was a slight delay, 1 min, for a B747 being towed across the rwy. Talk of non-essential at a critical time. It would also seem the company policy is not very well defined or stringent, but the arrival PA always being after TOD suggest an SOP. All this and the fact the cockpit PA's are in 2 sometimes 3 languages = even longer distraction.
(a) No certificate holder shall require, nor may any flight crew member perform any duties during a critical phase of flight except those duties required for the safe operation of the aircraft. Duties such as company required calls made for non-safety related purposes as ordering galley supplies and confirming passenger connections, announcements made to passengers promoting the air carrier or pointing out sights of interest and filling out company payroll and related records are not required for the safe operation of the aircraft.
(b) No flight crew member may engage in, nor may any pilot in command permit, any activity during a critical phase of flight which could distract any flight crew member from the performance of his or her duties or which could interfere in any way with the proper conduct of those duties. Activities such as eating meals, engaging in non-essential conversations within the cockpit and non-essential communications between the cabin and cockpit crews, and reading publications not related to the proper conduct of the flight are not required for the safe operation of the aircraft.
(c) For the purposes of this section, critical phase of flight involves all ground operations involving taxi, takeoff and landing, and all other flight operations conducted below 10,000 feet, except cruise flight.
Sounds all very common sense. I often fly with a major EU national carrier and am astonished at their PA procedures. They always make trip news PA's in the climb, before CRZ, and always seem to make an arrival PA just AFTER TOD. The other day we even had the captain make a 'sorry for the delay in takeoff' PA while lined up on the active RWY waiting for takeoff clearance. There was a slight delay, 1 min, for a B747 being towed across the rwy. Talk of non-essential at a critical time. It would also seem the company policy is not very well defined or stringent, but the arrival PA always being after TOD suggest an SOP. All this and the fact the cockpit PA's are in 2 sometimes 3 languages = even longer distraction.
FAR 121.542 / FAR 135.100--Flight Crew Member Duties
(a) No certificate holder shall require, nor may any flight crew member perform any duties during a critical phase of flight except those duties required for the safe operation of the aircraft. Duties such as company required calls made for non-safety related purposes as ordering galley supplies and confirming passenger connections, announcements made to passengers promoting the air carrier or pointing out sights of interest and filling out company payroll and related records are not required for the safe operation of the aircraft.
(b) No flight crew member may engage in, nor may any pilot in command permit, any activity during a critical phase of flight which could distract any flight crew member from the performance of his or her duties or which could interfere in any way with the proper conduct of those duties. Activities such as eating meals, engaging in non-essential conversations within the cockpit and non-essential communications between the cabin and cockpit crews, and reading publications not related to the proper conduct of the flight are not required for the safe operation of the aircraft.
(c) For the purposes of this section, critical phase of flight involves all ground operations involving taxi, takeoff and landing, and all other flight operations conducted below 10,000 feet, except cruise flight.
Sounds all very common sense. I often fly with a major EU national carrier and am astonished at their PA procedures. They always make trip news PA's in the climb, before CRZ, and always seem to make an arrival PA just AFTER TOD. The other day we even had the captain make a 'sorry for the delay in takeoff' PA while lined up on the active RWY waiting for takeoff clearance. There was a slight delay, 1 min, for a B747 being towed across the rwy. Talk of non-essential at a critical time. It would also seem the company policy is not very well defined or stringent, but the arrival PA always being after TOD suggest an SOP. All this and the fact the cockpit PA's are in 2 sometimes 3 languages = even longer distraction.
(a) No certificate holder shall require, nor may any flight crew member perform any duties during a critical phase of flight except those duties required for the safe operation of the aircraft. Duties such as company required calls made for non-safety related purposes as ordering galley supplies and confirming passenger connections, announcements made to passengers promoting the air carrier or pointing out sights of interest and filling out company payroll and related records are not required for the safe operation of the aircraft.
(b) No flight crew member may engage in, nor may any pilot in command permit, any activity during a critical phase of flight which could distract any flight crew member from the performance of his or her duties or which could interfere in any way with the proper conduct of those duties. Activities such as eating meals, engaging in non-essential conversations within the cockpit and non-essential communications between the cabin and cockpit crews, and reading publications not related to the proper conduct of the flight are not required for the safe operation of the aircraft.
(c) For the purposes of this section, critical phase of flight involves all ground operations involving taxi, takeoff and landing, and all other flight operations conducted below 10,000 feet, except cruise flight.
Sounds all very common sense. I often fly with a major EU national carrier and am astonished at their PA procedures. They always make trip news PA's in the climb, before CRZ, and always seem to make an arrival PA just AFTER TOD. The other day we even had the captain make a 'sorry for the delay in takeoff' PA while lined up on the active RWY waiting for takeoff clearance. There was a slight delay, 1 min, for a B747 being towed across the rwy. Talk of non-essential at a critical time. It would also seem the company policy is not very well defined or stringent, but the arrival PA always being after TOD suggest an SOP. All this and the fact the cockpit PA's are in 2 sometimes 3 languages = even longer distraction.
My view is that it would be virtually impossible for a new, junior, untrained and unbriefed cabin crewmember to call and convey a clear and accurate message in the time between 80 knots and V1. I can just see a high speed abort caused by dry ice!!!!
Thread Starter
I am referring to the phase of flight from application of takeoff thrust until gear retraction, not until 10000’. Some airlines call this the “no contact period”.
“I don't think he was saying that he didn't care about a cabin fire.”
Correct, of course it would be great to have an ECAM master warning for cabin fire that is instant and unambiguous, it’s a no brainer.
And given clear timely information about a cabin fire would certainly result in an abort.
But is a cabin crew member going to assess a situation accurately, have the clear thinking required to grab the handset, call the cockpit, wait for an answer and clearly and calmly convey the message to the flight crew all within the time it takes to accelerate from 100 knots to V1?
“I don't think he was saying that he didn't care about a cabin fire.”
Correct, of course it would be great to have an ECAM master warning for cabin fire that is instant and unambiguous, it’s a no brainer.
And given clear timely information about a cabin fire would certainly result in an abort.
But is a cabin crew member going to assess a situation accurately, have the clear thinking required to grab the handset, call the cockpit, wait for an answer and clearly and calmly convey the message to the flight crew all within the time it takes to accelerate from 100 knots to V1?
But is a cabin crew member going to assess a situation accurately, have the clear thinking required to grab the handset, call the cockpit, wait for an answer and clearly and calmly convey the message to the flight crew all within the time it takes to accelerate from 100 knots to V1?
You seem to be of the opinion that cabin crew are somehow not as capable or not as well trained as flightdeck in an emergency situation.
What is your evidence for this point of view?
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oicur12.again
In the airline I work for CC are allowed to contact the flight deck during the "Critical phase" (There are two: "From application of take off power until wheels-up" and "From Wheels down until exiting the runway")
There is only one situation where they are allowed to do so: and that is if they see visible flame in the cabin. If they do, they use the emergency call function and (when the pilot answers) state "cabin fire" and hang up.
Pretty simple.
DIVOSH!
In the airline I work for CC are allowed to contact the flight deck during the "Critical phase" (There are two: "From application of take off power until wheels-up" and "From Wheels down until exiting the runway")
There is only one situation where they are allowed to do so: and that is if they see visible flame in the cabin. If they do, they use the emergency call function and (when the pilot answers) state "cabin fire" and hang up.
Pretty simple.
DIVOSH!
Sure. What's wrong with making a PA in the climb? We make ours in the climb above 10,000' once transferred to Centre and cleared to final cruise level. The work is pretty much done then, and our PA is the signal for the cabin crew to call us for drinks, food, etc. Likewise with just after TOD. Once the descent is initiated there's not a lot to do. We would normally do ours prior to TOD but sometimes you get busy in which case we'd wait for a quiet period after TOD but before 10,000.
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The topic came up in CRM discussion and all long serving employees agreed that they like the idea of having a crew member contact them at ANY time during the takeoff roll in case of cabin fire.
My view is that it would be virtually impossible for a new, junior, untrained and unbriefed cabin crewmember to call and convey a clear and accurate message in the time between 80 knots and V1. I can just see a high speed abort caused by dry ice!!!!
Most crews agreed that they would abort at any speed below V1 simply upon hearing the call from the cabin.
This is effectively deputizing a cabin crewmember to make the go no go decision, a call not even the FO is permitted to make.
Thoughts? Input.
I am open to suggestion.
My view is that it would be virtually impossible for a new, junior, untrained and unbriefed cabin crewmember to call and convey a clear and accurate message in the time between 80 knots and V1. I can just see a high speed abort caused by dry ice!!!!
Most crews agreed that they would abort at any speed below V1 simply upon hearing the call from the cabin.
This is effectively deputizing a cabin crewmember to make the go no go decision, a call not even the FO is permitted to make.
Thoughts? Input.
I am open to suggestion.
Thread Starter
“You seem to be of the opinion that cabin crew are somehow not as capable or not as well trained as flight deck in an emergency situation.”
I don’t think they are fully aware of the quick action required during a high-speed abort or the consequences of confusion at a critical stage of flight. I am not implying they are poorly trained at their duties though but I would welcome any CC to visit a sim training session to watch how an RTO would unfold from the other side of the door.
A brief discussion at my previous airline during EP’s recurrent on the very subject of RTO indicated that CC opinion as to “how long do they think the take off roll lasts” varied from “10 seconds” to “several minutes”.
“There is only one situation where they are allowed to do so: and that is if they see visible flame in the cabin”
Fair enough. Your airline has a procedure in place and is probably practiced in recurrent. My very concern is there are no procedures in place, no standard phraseology and no training for such an event at my new airline. Just an informal agreement that something should occur.
“if anyone here got the emergency cabin call bell on the roll below V1 it would be stop now, ask questions later.”
It may not be that simple. Many A320/A330’s I have flown (including the present ones) have the aural function of the emergency call inhibited above 80 knots for a reason. Not sure if its standard pinning on all Airbus’s?
Interesting feedback with thanks, I will bear in mind this input and approach the concept with open eyes.
I don’t think they are fully aware of the quick action required during a high-speed abort or the consequences of confusion at a critical stage of flight. I am not implying they are poorly trained at their duties though but I would welcome any CC to visit a sim training session to watch how an RTO would unfold from the other side of the door.
A brief discussion at my previous airline during EP’s recurrent on the very subject of RTO indicated that CC opinion as to “how long do they think the take off roll lasts” varied from “10 seconds” to “several minutes”.
“There is only one situation where they are allowed to do so: and that is if they see visible flame in the cabin”
Fair enough. Your airline has a procedure in place and is probably practiced in recurrent. My very concern is there are no procedures in place, no standard phraseology and no training for such an event at my new airline. Just an informal agreement that something should occur.
“if anyone here got the emergency cabin call bell on the roll below V1 it would be stop now, ask questions later.”
It may not be that simple. Many A320/A330’s I have flown (including the present ones) have the aural function of the emergency call inhibited above 80 knots for a reason. Not sure if its standard pinning on all Airbus’s?
Interesting feedback with thanks, I will bear in mind this input and approach the concept with open eyes.
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For me I have to agree with the OP.
If I get a cabin call during T/O roll they will only get an answer after liftoff & workload permitting. Fly the aircraft first. Take-off roll is not the time to be discussing things with the cabin crew...
If I get a cabin call during T/O roll they will only get an answer after liftoff & workload permitting. Fly the aircraft first. Take-off roll is not the time to be discussing things with the cabin crew...
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I've worked for a bunch of airlines in different countries. After the good ol' CRM introduction the FLT OPs depts went berserk. Maximum combined C/A + Pilot recurrency training, etc. Trouble was the syllabus was always written by the less work loaded SEP trainers. They were very often low experienced highly motivated newbies, and knew very little. The training sessions were, for me, farcical. Their ideas of what really went on, and what we thought and what we would be doing was so far out of touch as to be a joke; yet they were giving the training sessions. The local XAA was satisfied that combined safety recurrency training had been given to an approved syllabus. Box ticked. JOKE!
The last bunch and a C/A call signal to the F.D for a perceived ground emergency situation. The SEP manual stated what should be said, and it as always for a fire. The was no guidance given for any other scenario, it as only for a fire, of unspecified severity. There was no guidance for what the pilots should do. I asked, many times, if we should stop the a/c and prepare for evac. No reply from FLT OPs. I asked when could the C/A give the call, and when not? No reply. JOKE, but boxed ticked.
There is much to be sorted out, if only you knew.
The last bunch and a C/A call signal to the F.D for a perceived ground emergency situation. The SEP manual stated what should be said, and it as always for a fire. The was no guidance given for any other scenario, it as only for a fire, of unspecified severity. There was no guidance for what the pilots should do. I asked, many times, if we should stop the a/c and prepare for evac. No reply from FLT OPs. I asked when could the C/A give the call, and when not? No reply. JOKE, but boxed ticked.
There is much to be sorted out, if only you knew.
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My last airline had a policy that there was to be no cabin crew contact with the flight deck between start of take off until gear up. In addition there was to be no contact from gear down until turning off the runway, or the aircraft had stopped and things were seriously going wrong.
I worked for a company back in the 80's who had this "open mic" policy. Once during takeoff roll in Gatwick we heard "I hate this f.....g captain, he's a pain in the a..e". I must say that as the FO I agreed!