Passeger weights
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Passeger weights
Given that one third of the UK population is now clinically obese, is it not time for a re-think of average passenger weights used to produce load sheets.
Just have a look around next time you are in the departure lounge, how many passengers are under 88 kgs?
What weight are you rotating at, what is your maximum/optimum operating altitude, net drift down capability?
Just have a look around next time you are in the departure lounge, how many passengers are under 88 kgs?
What weight are you rotating at, what is your maximum/optimum operating altitude, net drift down capability?
Last edited by King Dong; 13th Jul 2014 at 22:00.
Samoa Air charges passengers by weight (truly just self-loading freight from their perspective).
Samoa Air - How does 'Pay by weight' work?
They do offer XL seating for the extra-hefty individuals.
Elsewhere - just assuming an average weight makes for faster loading. The assumed average does get reconsidered from time to time, as sociology dictates.
FAA average used to be 170 lbs (77.3 kg) per adult - raised in 2004 to 190 lbs for adults (200 for men, 179 for women) after an accident due (in part) to an overweight condition caused by the inaccuracy of the old FAA figure (Air Midwest 5481). The estimates also vary with the season (they assume 5 extra lbs (2 kgs) of additional clothing weight per pax in cold months).
Samoa Air - How does 'Pay by weight' work?
They do offer XL seating for the extra-hefty individuals.
Elsewhere - just assuming an average weight makes for faster loading. The assumed average does get reconsidered from time to time, as sociology dictates.
FAA average used to be 170 lbs (77.3 kg) per adult - raised in 2004 to 190 lbs for adults (200 for men, 179 for women) after an accident due (in part) to an overweight condition caused by the inaccuracy of the old FAA figure (Air Midwest 5481). The estimates also vary with the season (they assume 5 extra lbs (2 kgs) of additional clothing weight per pax in cold months).
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Years ago, the Washington State Ferry system tried a measurement rule on the passenger boat, using aviation standards of an 18 inch wide seat.
One can only imagine the the issues at ticketing with an 18 wide gage. Public outcry, ACLU involvement, and other issues that happened...needless to say, that stopped very quickly
I would note that ANZ has a very strict carryon weight limit of 7 kilos. This causes all kinds of problems for people, but in reality, I think it is a very good idea.
People have enough problems with the body scanners, can you imagine trying to weigh them??
One can only imagine the the issues at ticketing with an 18 wide gage. Public outcry, ACLU involvement, and other issues that happened...needless to say, that stopped very quickly
I would note that ANZ has a very strict carryon weight limit of 7 kilos. This causes all kinds of problems for people, but in reality, I think it is a very good idea.
People have enough problems with the body scanners, can you imagine trying to weigh them??
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Assume your average weight is wrong by 10 pounds. You have 300 people = 3,000 excess pounds. A 777 has a OEW of about 310,000 lbs, so you're off by, at most, 0.9%. (At MTOW, you'd be wrong by 0.5%)
If your large airplane has a 1% margin between safe takeoff and a crash, then I'd say you have a severe design problem. It's really a problem in very small aircraft, like the BE1900, not in anything mainline.
If your large airplane has a 1% margin between safe takeoff and a crash, then I'd say you have a severe design problem. It's really a problem in very small aircraft, like the BE1900, not in anything mainline.
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Concur.
I think this really is a significant issue that needs to be addressed.
Aircraft manufacturers are squeezing in seats, but people are getting bigger.
It is time to be realistic, and load the aircraft accordingly. Hell, if nothing else, you can get more freight on the ac...that is where you can make money. The ac is overweight, with min fuel load...just like the 'blind' scanners, they could have a pressure plate to weigh everyone at the gate.
In reality, 17 and 18 inch seats dont work, make the seats 24 inch and charge more for a flight.
(charging for 2 seats, damn, have you ever tried to sit on 2 seats?
)
EDIT: I did work with one Chinese airline that did weigh everyone. Landing conditions were extreme, so they did an exact balance for the weight, as freight was very, very important. I thought it was a very, very good way to do business.
I think this really is a significant issue that needs to be addressed.
Aircraft manufacturers are squeezing in seats, but people are getting bigger.
It is time to be realistic, and load the aircraft accordingly. Hell, if nothing else, you can get more freight on the ac...that is where you can make money. The ac is overweight, with min fuel load...just like the 'blind' scanners, they could have a pressure plate to weigh everyone at the gate.
In reality, 17 and 18 inch seats dont work, make the seats 24 inch and charge more for a flight.
(charging for 2 seats, damn, have you ever tried to sit on 2 seats?
)EDIT: I did work with one Chinese airline that did weigh everyone. Landing conditions were extreme, so they did an exact balance for the weight, as freight was very, very important. I thought it was a very, very good way to do business.
I was under the impression that assumed weights were from time to time reviewed.
Surely this is a case of statistical probability - given (say) 100 passengers (bearing in mind different assumed weights are used for adults and children) the odds are that the assumed weight system will be less that the actual.
The Commander also has the right to have all passengers weighed - I have done so on a couple of occasions in the past (B737 type) and the actual weight in both cases was less than the figure assumed weight would have been.
As far as take off speeds are concerned on the B737 a weight change of 1,000 kgs would affect take off speeds by 2kts so rarely would any weight discrepancy affect speeds by more than one knot although there might be a slight degradation to performance.
What is more important is that hold bags (and probably cabin bags too) are weighed rather than using assumed.
When I flew the A320 for a UK charter airline about 20 years ago we were finding we were quite often getting "Check Gross Weight" from the FMGS after getting airborne. As soon as we weighed all bags this showed we were heavier than we thought and the issue was resolved.
Surely this is a case of statistical probability - given (say) 100 passengers (bearing in mind different assumed weights are used for adults and children) the odds are that the assumed weight system will be less that the actual.
The Commander also has the right to have all passengers weighed - I have done so on a couple of occasions in the past (B737 type) and the actual weight in both cases was less than the figure assumed weight would have been.
As far as take off speeds are concerned on the B737 a weight change of 1,000 kgs would affect take off speeds by 2kts so rarely would any weight discrepancy affect speeds by more than one knot although there might be a slight degradation to performance.
What is more important is that hold bags (and probably cabin bags too) are weighed rather than using assumed.
When I flew the A320 for a UK charter airline about 20 years ago we were finding we were quite often getting "Check Gross Weight" from the FMGS after getting airborne. As soon as we weighed all bags this showed we were heavier than we thought and the issue was resolved.
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The Commander also has the right to have all passengers weighed
Last edited by King Dong; 12th Jul 2014 at 22:18.
It is true the Commander has the right to have passengers weighed, but in reality it's never going to happen on your average bucket and spade flight to the Costas.
When we operated a/c like the B737-200 on sectors such as Leeds to Palma in the 1980s weighing the passengers and being able to carry an extra 250 kg of fuel was the difference between a tech stop for fuel or not.
We would be taxied to Leeds from base prior to the flight so it was a simple matter to ask the handling agent to weigh passengers when they checked in. They were quite used to this request from time to time and would quite happily oblige. Of course, as a footnote, if the actual weight was more than assumed weights you were then legally obliged to use the actual weight.
So King Dong, the necessity to weigh passengers may well have diminished but it is enshrined in statute that the Commander has the absolute right to demand that passengers are weighed. One would have to have a good reason to do so but I would take issue with your statement "but in reality it's never going to happen" - it all depends!
Ps Meant to mention - these were what you would term "bucket and spade" flights.
Last edited by fireflybob; 12th Jul 2014 at 22:51.
In my part of the world the Air Operator certificate has a requirement for the operator to carry out an average passenger weight survey every 5 years approximately.
Also with non "standard population" passenger loads (i.e. sports teams, armed services etc) making group bookings requires a different weight allowance.
http://www.caa.govt.nz/Advisory_Circulars/AC119_4.pdf
Also with non "standard population" passenger loads (i.e. sports teams, armed services etc) making group bookings requires a different weight allowance.
http://www.caa.govt.nz/Advisory_Circulars/AC119_4.pdf
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I think that given all of the talk about fuel costs, aircraft efficiency and such, I am surprised more airlines aren't weighing pax.
When it warms up, you start getting weight limited, so that would be another justification.
When it warms up, you start getting weight limited, so that would be another justification.
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Some airlines are now weighing carry on and tagging with the weight. Can I get a discount for being under the standard pax weight
Great idea. We should get a discount for being under the 'standard' weight used by the airline.
Or...
...be allowed to take MORE baggage to equal the standard weight. If your over the weight for a passenger, you then have to take less baggage. So you're penalised for being overweight.
Totally discriminatory, but hey, worth it if you ain't a fatty.
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hahaha, nice try! If you are underweight, I am sure that is taken care of by those who are over, especially if the calc wt is 200lbs for males, and 179 for females!
Dont know what the typical calc wt for carryons is, but yes, ANZ weighs all carry ons, with a 7 kilo limit (total), makes it pretty nice boarding and leaving the ac...
Dont know what the typical calc wt for carryons is, but yes, ANZ weighs all carry ons, with a 7 kilo limit (total), makes it pretty nice boarding and leaving the ac...
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The whole issue of weight is more complex than just the pax. I'm really talking about the ticket costs. Airlines say they charge on extras for weight because it costs fuel and the relevant pax should pay. Hm? Wizzair are charging for carryons. How possible is it NOT to have some kind of carryon? Crazy. If they charge for 7kgs of carryon because it costs more fuel than those without, what about the 100kg male pax v 84kg male pax? Surely the heavy could be charged more. What about the 84kg male and the 65kg female? same ticket price. No extra charge allowed due sex discrimination.
There was a report last week that overall the worlds airlines charged U$25bn on extra last year versus U$8bn a fe years ago. Big bucks.
What erks me is that some airlines e.g. ez charge €80 for 20kgs golf bag but only €35 for 20kg suitcase. Where s the weight = fuel argument? Other airlines also charge €40 - 80 for golf bags with a weight spectrum 15-23kgs. It makes me mistrust the argument.
Meanwhile, as it said that people are much bigger than some years ago, I read that airlines, on such a/c as B777 & B787, are making the ecom seats narrower to squeeze an extra one in per row, and reducing the seat pitch to squeeze and extra row in the class to try and recoup more cash. Thus flying is going to become more uncomfortable.
But where is the logic? Bigger people, smaller more cramped seats, same standard weight? Perhaps less of us will travel due to it being a literal pain in the backside, and lower back.
There was a report last week that overall the worlds airlines charged U$25bn on extra last year versus U$8bn a fe years ago. Big bucks.
What erks me is that some airlines e.g. ez charge €80 for 20kgs golf bag but only €35 for 20kg suitcase. Where s the weight = fuel argument? Other airlines also charge €40 - 80 for golf bags with a weight spectrum 15-23kgs. It makes me mistrust the argument.
Meanwhile, as it said that people are much bigger than some years ago, I read that airlines, on such a/c as B777 & B787, are making the ecom seats narrower to squeeze an extra one in per row, and reducing the seat pitch to squeeze and extra row in the class to try and recoup more cash. Thus flying is going to become more uncomfortable.
But where is the logic? Bigger people, smaller more cramped seats, same standard weight? Perhaps less of us will travel due to it being a literal pain in the backside, and lower back.
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Another complication is that weights and sizes vary by region, and aircraft are configured accordingly if used in a specific region. If I remember correctly the Dutch are the tallest and the Indonesians the shortest. As far as weight is concerned I suppose the Samoans are the heaviest but they probably don't travel much outside their region, and I think the Filipinos the lightest.
Surely pax weights should be recorded at some point as a large group of very heavy (or light) people could slew mass and balance from the average.
Surely pax weights should be recorded at some point as a large group of very heavy (or light) people could slew mass and balance from the average.
With modern technology I would have thought it was about time we had a system which accurately displayed the weight and centre of gravity via the aircraft oleo system or whatever.
When I flew the B707 freighter in the 1970s we had a crude system called STAN (if I recall correctly this stood for Sum Total and Noseweight or something like that) which we used to check for gross errors on the loading.
When I flew the B707 freighter in the 1970s we had a crude system called STAN (if I recall correctly this stood for Sum Total and Noseweight or something like that) which we used to check for gross errors on the loading.
