xbleed start during push back
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But Iwoukld like to know if there is any legal doc regarding this procedure and what boeing says about it ???
eCFR ? Code of Federal Regulations
I wouldn't do it in any Aircraft that required above idle thrust from the running Engine in order to achieve the required duct pressure.
What I said was its ops normal in the 777 or A330 to carryout a cross bleed start during pushback because you don't need more than idle thrust to achieve required minimum duct pressure for a successful start of the other Engine.
If there is any doubt then don't do it during push, either do it before push or after depending on the Tarmac, ATC requirements and ground crew requirements etc etc.
Common sense gentleman.
What I said was its ops normal in the 777 or A330 to carryout a cross bleed start during pushback because you don't need more than idle thrust to achieve required minimum duct pressure for a successful start of the other Engine.
If there is any doubt then don't do it during push, either do it before push or after depending on the Tarmac, ATC requirements and ground crew requirements etc etc.
Common sense gentleman.
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What I said was its ops normal in the 777 or A330 to carryout a cross bleed start during pushback because you don't need more than idle thrust to achieve required minimum duct pressure for a successful start of the other Engine.
Definitely NOT true on the A330. Often you need to increase thrust above idle to keep the pressure sufficient. Especially in hot and/or high conditions.
Definitely NOT true on the A330. Often you need to increase thrust above idle to keep the pressure sufficient. Especially in hot and/or high conditions.
Rubbish, I've done quite a few cross bleed starts on our A330's in the last 5 years and always done it during push without needing to increase thrust. The duct pressure always stayed above the required 25 psi with the start valve open. Naturally we read and do the procedure straight from the book.
In fact the A330 FCOM Supplementary Procedures Power Plant section procedure clearly states:--
"The remaining Engine is now started by crossbleed air from the operating Engine. This may be done during pushback...."
Now if yours doesn't say that then..............
I should add that we have RR Trent Engines...
In fact the A330 FCOM Supplementary Procedures Power Plant section procedure clearly states:--
"The remaining Engine is now started by crossbleed air from the operating Engine. This may be done during pushback...."
Now if yours doesn't say that then..............
I should add that we have RR Trent Engines...
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Check Airman
You are correct and there will be much the same legislation in place world wide but this requires interpretation.
The latest breed of children have been living in a culture of non responsability for their actions, as soon as an accident happens they run to their lawyers and try to blame anyone apart from themselfs, this is why they know the regulations & SOP's right down to the smallest detail because that way they think they can keep themselfs safe from the authority's. In the legislation you link to it says nothing about crossbleed starts, so in the logic of these people it is not prohibited and so not wreckless, this would be their defense in court.
The problems are that actions may be legal but they are not wise, and in some situations the wise action may not entirely be in compliance with all the rules, unfortunately with the current fashion for rushing to the court room as soon as anything goes wrong we have produced a generaton of people who only see life from a leagal point of view and use this to protect themselfs from their own stupid actions.
That is why when you buy a packet of peanuts it has a warning on the packet telling you that the product contains nuts............... It is the manufacturs protecting themselfs from those devoid of common sence but with access to a lawyer.
The latest breed of children have been living in a culture of non responsability for their actions, as soon as an accident happens they run to their lawyers and try to blame anyone apart from themselfs, this is why they know the regulations & SOP's right down to the smallest detail because that way they think they can keep themselfs safe from the authority's. In the legislation you link to it says nothing about crossbleed starts, so in the logic of these people it is not prohibited and so not wreckless, this would be their defense in court.
The problems are that actions may be legal but they are not wise, and in some situations the wise action may not entirely be in compliance with all the rules, unfortunately with the current fashion for rushing to the court room as soon as anything goes wrong we have produced a generaton of people who only see life from a leagal point of view and use this to protect themselfs from their own stupid actions.
That is why when you buy a packet of peanuts it has a warning on the packet telling you that the product contains nuts............... It is the manufacturs protecting themselfs from those devoid of common sence but with access to a lawyer.
Last edited by A and C; 18th Apr 2014 at 09:04.
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Hey Nitpicker330,
Interesting reply. Funny that my 5 year experience is different. Besides my manual has a different note: to increase up to 30% N1 if needed to obtain the pressure needed. We have mainly GE engines though, but a few RR Trent too.
Guess the Northern Hemisphere has adverse effects
Interesting reply. Funny that my 5 year experience is different. Besides my manual has a different note: to increase up to 30% N1 if needed to obtain the pressure needed. We have mainly GE engines though, but a few RR Trent too.
Guess the Northern Hemisphere has adverse effects
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We have a pushback procedure on our our aircraft which even prohibits main engine start _using APU_ if any part of the pushback involves forward movement. On some aircraft types, to facilitate easy towbar disconnection, the aircraft is towed forward in a straight line for 20 feet.
Obviously, procedures are guided by past incidents/accidents.
Obviously, procedures are guided by past incidents/accidents.
You are correct and there will be much the same legislation in place world wide but this requires interpretation.
The latest breed of children have been living in a culture of non responsability for their actions, as soon as an accident happens they run to their lawyers and try to blame anyone apart from themselfs, this is why they know the regulations & SOP's right down to the smallest detail because that way they think they can keep themselfs safe from the authority's. In the legislation you link to it says nothing about crossbleed starts, so in the logic of these people it is not prohibited and so not wreckless, this would be their defense in court.
The problems are that actions may be legal but they are not wise, and in some situations the wise action may not entirely be in compliance with all the rules, unfortunately with the current fashion for rushing to the court room as soon as anything goes wrong we have produced a generaton of people who only see life from a leagal point of view and use this to protect themselfs from their own stupid actions.
That is why when you buy a packet of peanuts it has a warning on the packet telling you that the product contains nuts............... It is the manufacturs protecting themselfs from those devoid of common sence but with access to a lawyer.
The latest breed of children have been living in a culture of non responsability for their actions, as soon as an accident happens they run to their lawyers and try to blame anyone apart from themselfs, this is why they know the regulations & SOP's right down to the smallest detail because that way they think they can keep themselfs safe from the authority's. In the legislation you link to it says nothing about crossbleed starts, so in the logic of these people it is not prohibited and so not wreckless, this would be their defense in court.
The problems are that actions may be legal but they are not wise, and in some situations the wise action may not entirely be in compliance with all the rules, unfortunately with the current fashion for rushing to the court room as soon as anything goes wrong we have produced a generaton of people who only see life from a leagal point of view and use this to protect themselfs from their own stupid actions.
That is why when you buy a packet of peanuts it has a warning on the packet telling you that the product contains nuts............... It is the manufacturs protecting themselfs from those devoid of common sence but with access to a lawyer.
There is a big difference between "doing things right" (aka management) as opposed to "doing the right thing" (aka leadership)
DutchOne---I can't explain the difference? My company was ( or still is ) the biggest 330 operator in the world since 1996 and we fly in both hemispheres!!
Anyway I can only tell you what we do.
Anyway I can only tell you what we do.
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Definitely need to increase thrust up to about 40% N1 (from the idle around 28-30%) on our P&W powered A330s, to get sufficient duct pressure for the crossbleed start.
Also for what it's worth, crossbleed start during the pushback is prohibited under our SOP, it's only allowed while stationary with the park brake set.
Also for what it's worth, crossbleed start during the pushback is prohibited under our SOP, it's only allowed while stationary with the park brake set.
