non-coutner-rotating jet engines
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non-coutner-rotating jet engines
Hello,
I'm sorry if this has been covered in another thread (I have looked but with no success), and also if this is not the most appropriate forum (the subject matter here seems rather more lofty than my question).
Is the overriding reason for jets using non-counter-rotating engines the cost involved in setting up two different assembly lines?
I'm not downplaying this as a factor, as I appreciate this extra cost would be huge. I have not found any information directly dealing with this issue in any detail, although a poster on another aviation forum hinted that the torque and p-factor experienced by an aircraft with jet engines is not as detrimental to its performance as that of a twin-prop?
Any help would be greatly appreciated
I'm sorry if this has been covered in another thread (I have looked but with no success), and also if this is not the most appropriate forum (the subject matter here seems rather more lofty than my question).
Is the overriding reason for jets using non-counter-rotating engines the cost involved in setting up two different assembly lines?
I'm not downplaying this as a factor, as I appreciate this extra cost would be huge. I have not found any information directly dealing with this issue in any detail, although a poster on another aviation forum hinted that the torque and p-factor experienced by an aircraft with jet engines is not as detrimental to its performance as that of a twin-prop?
Any help would be greatly appreciated
I'm not downplaying this as a factor, as I appreciate this extra cost would be huge.
Not so much that, as there is no POINT to making counter-rotating jet engines.
It is a fact that there have in fact been a few attempts at making counter-rotating propellor engines, but that is because P factor means that a prop aircraft with both engines rotating in the same direction has a reduced performance in the single engine case on one engine in comparison to the other.
Still, the economic factors involved in having two different engines means even this has been a minority proposition.
This is NOT the case with jet engines.
While there is a small amount of "swirl" in the eflux of jet engines, it does not make any significant change to the aircrafts single engine performance, no matter which engine fails.
Jets don't have a "critical" engine, so there is no point in having counter-rotating engines.
It is a fact that there have in fact been a few attempts at making counter-rotating propellor engines, but that is because P factor means that a prop aircraft with both engines rotating in the same direction has a reduced performance in the single engine case on one engine in comparison to the other.
Still, the economic factors involved in having two different engines means even this has been a minority proposition.
This is NOT the case with jet engines.
While there is a small amount of "swirl" in the eflux of jet engines, it does not make any significant change to the aircrafts single engine performance, no matter which engine fails.
Jets don't have a "critical" engine, so there is no point in having counter-rotating engines.
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My half arsed guess goes something like this:
The issues associated with counter-rotating engines are more applicable to propeller driven aircraft
Asymmetric blade effect (uneven thrust at high angles of attack) does not apply to jets (as much) as the inlet ducting prevents air approaching anywhere but front on; and
Torque effect doesn't apply to jets because torque has to be applied to something fixed to the airframe (cylinder heads for piston or perhaps a gearbox for turboprops) for the aircraft to 'feel' it. Jets have neither as the torque provided by the turbine is comes from hot gas expanding into a free airstream rather than against a cylinder wall.
The issues associated with counter-rotating engines are more applicable to propeller driven aircraft
Asymmetric blade effect (uneven thrust at high angles of attack) does not apply to jets (as much) as the inlet ducting prevents air approaching anywhere but front on; and
Torque effect doesn't apply to jets because torque has to be applied to something fixed to the airframe (cylinder heads for piston or perhaps a gearbox for turboprops) for the aircraft to 'feel' it. Jets have neither as the torque provided by the turbine is comes from hot gas expanding into a free airstream rather than against a cylinder wall.
It is a fact that there have in fact been a few attempts at making counter-rotating propellor engines
The 'swirl' affect on a fan on a jet engine is 'reacted' by fan exit guide vanes in both the fan and the core. So while there is a torque in one direction from the fan, the exit guide vanes provide a counter torque in the opposite direction that is nearly equal to the fan torque. The final stages of the turbine work similarly. Hence the net torque from the engine that ends up being applied to the airframe is minimal (plus minimizing the exit swirl helps efficiency).
Some propeller engines do more or less the same thing by using counter rotating props.
Some propeller engines do more or less the same thing by using counter rotating props.
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Common airplanes with counter-rotating props include: The Beech Duchess, Piper Seminole, Seneca, certain models of the Navajo, including the Chieftain, and the Cessna Crusader. all with direct drive engines ie: Prop is bolted directly onto the crankshaft.
I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to name a common GA aircraft with geared engines and counter rotating props.
'Jets don't have a "critical" engine, so there is no point in having counter-rotating engines. '
Agree with their being no need for 'counter rotating engines' on jets but they do have a critical engine it's just that it's not always the same.
It's the outboard engine on the upwind wing.
Agree with their being no need for 'counter rotating engines' on jets but they do have a critical engine it's just that it's not always the same.
It's the outboard engine on the upwind wing.
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Agree with their being no need for 'counter rotating engines' on jets but they do have a critical engine it's just that it's not always the same.
It's the outboard engine on the upwind wing.
It's the outboard engine on the upwind wing.
I think that you're mistaken about this. The only twin engine airplanes I know of which have counter rotating props have direct drive engines.
Undaunted, I'll stick my neck out farther and assert that it's the right-hand engine that has a left-hand rotating crankshaft on a C/R twin.
Though if we're were talking turboprops, all bets are off, at least in respect of the A400M. It has both left-and right-hand props on each wing, geared obviously, and in this case it's the gearboxes that are handed.
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I was about to say - 100% of the C/R piston twins I have flown are direct drive. Geared prop piston twins are not real common.
Trivia fact - the P-38 C/R engines are on the "wrong" sides. The plane flies better that way.
Trivia fact - the P-38 C/R engines are on the "wrong" sides. The plane flies better that way.
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interesting, so there *are* counter rotating jet engines. Why is that? Seems like if torque and "p-factor" are negligible to nonexistent, there wouldn't be much advantage to building different engines for different sides.
interesting, so there *are* counter rotating jet engines. Why is that? Seems like if torque and "p-factor" are negligible to nonexistent, there wouldn't be much advantage to building different engines for different sides.
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A sq,
The three concentric shafts on the engines swap direction from inside to outside - but all the same way on all of the engines.
It avoids the need for a set of stator vanes between intermediate and high-pressure components, at the expense of scarier bearings.
The three concentric shafts on the engines swap direction from inside to outside - but all the same way on all of the engines.
It avoids the need for a set of stator vanes between intermediate and high-pressure components, at the expense of scarier bearings.
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