737NG flaps 10
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Not really....
Many years ago, specifically with regard to the 737 but applicable to all aircraft, really, Boeing published a document....I can't find it in my library, but I know I had it, I have it somewhere....where it showed that extending flaps/slats to slow the aircraft is not really productive. As I remember, they illustrated a case where the aircraft was high and fast....and three scenarios:
First, the pilots used the normal flap/extension regime, gear down right after Flaps 5.
Second, the pilots extended flaps/slats at Vfe, gear down at Flaps 5.
Third, the pilots used the speed brake and gear for getting where they wanted to be, extending the flaps/slats at the proper speed schedule.
The result showed the third scenario was the most effective.
Unless you go beyond about Flaps 15, you're really getting little additional drag. In fact, you're getting a lot of lift vs. the small increase in drag with the lower flap settings.
So, when you need it, use the gear / speed brakes as applicable. The flaps/slats will be happier. You'll get back to where you want to be on the approach much easier, quicker, with less nail biting.
Fly safe,
PantLoad
First, the pilots used the normal flap/extension regime, gear down right after Flaps 5.
Second, the pilots extended flaps/slats at Vfe, gear down at Flaps 5.
Third, the pilots used the speed brake and gear for getting where they wanted to be, extending the flaps/slats at the proper speed schedule.
The result showed the third scenario was the most effective.
Unless you go beyond about Flaps 15, you're really getting little additional drag. In fact, you're getting a lot of lift vs. the small increase in drag with the lower flap settings.
So, when you need it, use the gear / speed brakes as applicable. The flaps/slats will be happier. You'll get back to where you want to be on the approach much easier, quicker, with less nail biting.
Fly safe,
PantLoad
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And remember, be a good little FO and never question authority.
Hey, is that Nimitz Hill?
(At some times it's good to say something. Disagreeing on the configuration, can be handled on the ground, whether a pilot is being conservative or misinformed.)
Hey, is that Nimitz Hill?
(At some times it's good to say something. Disagreeing on the configuration, can be handled on the ground, whether a pilot is being conservative or misinformed.)
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I use FL10 to slow down on the glide if FL5 is struggling. It works because it does add some drag. I don't use it often but it is well known that FL10, speedbrake and 180 kts gives a very good, controlled ROD.
I've also seen lots of other pilots using FL10 on the glide and it's taught in line training. Our airline (second biggest operator of the 738NG worldwide) prefers it to the use of the gear beyond 5d.
Too many pilots believe there is only one way (their way) of flying the aeroplane and can't tolerate or understand other approaches to resolving a problem, but I believe it's always worth listening and learning from others, be it a 10,000 hr Captain or 200 hr cadet.
I've also seen lots of other pilots using FL10 on the glide and it's taught in line training. Our airline (second biggest operator of the 738NG worldwide) prefers it to the use of the gear beyond 5d.
Too many pilots believe there is only one way (their way) of flying the aeroplane and can't tolerate or understand other approaches to resolving a problem, but I believe it's always worth listening and learning from others, be it a 10,000 hr Captain or 200 hr cadet.
Thread Starter
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Many thanks for your contributions,the thread has grown very much.Then i wasn't wrong thinking that Flaps 10 does a pretty job while attempting to slow down on the glide.I needed outputs from people of different background on the matter.
Best regards
Best regards
It does a pretty job at certain weights/ temps /pressures with certain winds. It is an inadequate response at certain weights / temps/ pressures with certain winds. One of the great things about flying is that the variables are so many that judgement is often required to determine the best action.
Don't worry whether or not you were right or wrong, worry whether or not you can learn something from the flight and become better. Even if that is just learning why the Captain made a different assessment of the energy state than you did.
Don't worry whether or not you were right or wrong, worry whether or not you can learn something from the flight and become better. Even if that is just learning why the Captain made a different assessment of the energy state than you did.
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Regarding the FCTM quote. Don't forget the FCTM is also written for the classic where F10 gives you a lower speed than F5. I think what the FCTM is talking about is that instead of going directly from F5 to gear down / F15; you can go to F10 if ATC wants you to slow down when still far from the runway.
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Too many pilots believe there is only one way (their way) of flying the aeroplane and can't tolerate or understand other approaches to resolving a problem, but I believe it's always worth listening and learning from others, be it a 10,000 hr Captain or 200 hr cadet.
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Captains who are talking autopilots are not always the best teachers. I have to disagree that the captain should always have the right to interfere in a the handling technique of PF, unless there is a safety/economic/SOP issue. As as been said there are many acceptable ways to skin the cat. I have come across many confused F/O's who have been taught 'SOP's?' by LTC's. Confused because there was such a variety of SOP's out there, when in fact it was a host of opinions. In today's world captains are being upgraded with less & less hours. They need to keep a steep learning curve all the way to CMD. The TQ courses teach absolute basics for the type. Most line flying is so shackled and inhibited by nanny SOP's that the new 3000hr captain will only have an inkling of what the a/c is capable of, and more importantly how to extricate yourself from an unwanted or unexpected condition. The a/c is capable of far more than most people realise. The HOT & Hi event at FHM comes to mind, and no doubt around the world there have been and will be many other scenarios where PF said "I'd like to have known the best way get out of that." A G/A is always an option, fuel permitting, but not always necessary.
Dutch Roller
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Framer: The main thing is that it should not be taken personally. It is not a slight on your ability to fly an approach, it is simply what the PIC thinks is best at that moment. Don't hold it against them for being conservative, one day you might decide to be a fraction more conservative too.....that happens.
Last edited by Track; 28th Jan 2013 at 18:10.
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IMHO an F/O in their first few years is an apprentice and the captain a mentor/teacher. I learnt many things, both good and bad, from my years as an apprentice. I developed my style picking the cherries from the good guys and discarding the more dubious practices. As a T. captain of 25 years in various airlines and on various a/c, and therefore different operating cultures, I continued to learn from the F/O's. They were like myself and developed their style from the various captains who they'd flown with. I knew nothing of these captains' techniques other than what I saw via the F/O's. I learnt some very slick things. The same was true from hours in the back of the sim. I had my test program, to cover the necessary items, but the variety of what I saw in how to handle various scenarios was wonderful. I believed in allowing people to learn however they could, even me. There were occasions on the line when I thought PF was trying to be a little too slick and push the 500' boundary too far. A persuasive suggestion to consider a little more drag was sometimes met with a hesitant stare, but compliant reaction. As we squeezed through the 500' eye of the needle and just sneaked under the wire the non-arrogant and true apprentice F/O's acknowledged the mentoring. Indeed they enjoyed flying with me because they were allowed their head and trusted where I drew the line. Thus they learnt where the boundaries were and grew wiser. I did no more than pass on a philosophy I had been lucky enough to have be taught within. I can only commend it.
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RAT5
Very well said, that's exactly what I expect from the boss in the left seat. Make me feel like its my idea rather than blatantly tell me what to do.
I'm the kind of pilot that likes to "stretch it a bit". Never wanna drag the aeroplane in, stay on Flap 5 for as long as possible (5nm in most cases. I fly in an environment where ATC gives separation of 10nm on approach most times).
I find that most new captains on type are not comfortable with this approach and want me to configure much earlier so I always brief what I'm going to do and I have an idea of their approval (or not) way before the approach phase.
I hardly use flaps 10, only use it to get the speed to exact flaps speed for separation when behind a slower aircraft and catching up. I prefer to wait a bit longer and use the landing gear.
I'm the kind of pilot that likes to "stretch it a bit". Never wanna drag the aeroplane in, stay on Flap 5 for as long as possible (5nm in most cases. I fly in an environment where ATC gives separation of 10nm on approach most times).
I find that most new captains on type are not comfortable with this approach and want me to configure much earlier so I always brief what I'm going to do and I have an idea of their approval (or not) way before the approach phase.
I hardly use flaps 10, only use it to get the speed to exact flaps speed for separation when behind a slower aircraft and catching up. I prefer to wait a bit longer and use the landing gear.
I'm flying with an increasing number of pilots who seem completely unconcerned about passenger comfort when flying the aeroplane, whether it be their rough manual handling or simply their choice of when and how to configure.
Flap 10? Flap 5 to 5d? Speedbrake roughly pulled to flight detent? Taking the first rapid exit by standing on the brakes? Sometimes pilots think they're flying solo.
Flap 10? Flap 5 to 5d? Speedbrake roughly pulled to flight detent? Taking the first rapid exit by standing on the brakes? Sometimes pilots think they're flying solo.
