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Old 27th Dec 2012, 22:03   #21 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
getting safely to the gate is a MAJOR consideration in Cat III operations.
And how about getting FROM the gate TO the runway during low visibility conditions? I'd say it's just as much of a challenge. If an operator is approved for 600 RVR departures, it's pretty likely that they'll encounter visibilities of LESS than that during the TAXI phase. Or is that part of the takeoff?

But I agree in spirit with what you're implying intruder. In fact low RVR isn't necessary to present effectively poor visibility types of challenges to taxiing safely to or from your parking position. Especially at night. Or while it's raining/snowing. The way some of the lighting on the airport can glare off of wet/snowy/icy surfaces and windshields might make you want to whip out the low vis taxi chart and request a new taxi route!

In any event the specific criteria defining different phases of flight vary somewhat according to who defines them and for what purpose. Accident statistical analysis, certain aviation regulations and operator SOPs all differentiate between classification of events or requirements according to "phase of flight". A separate taxonomy for each purpose and usage it seems. In flying as in normal life, I find the inconsistencies in the use of terminology to be the single biggest source of misunderstanding among my peers. As such, this little discussion certainly does no harm even though it can easily be seen as having devolved into esoteric pedantry.

westhawk
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Old 27th Dec 2012, 23:25   #22 (permalink)
 
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There is certainly merit in calling the landing roll-out of a CAT III approach part of the approach. Having said that CAT III approaches are unique in their requirements for aided roll-out guidance.

Once down to taxi speed, though, the approach is over. Granted, getting to the gate can be very difficult;nonetheless that is not part of the approach procedure.

Although not advised, the airplane could stop on the runway and sit there for a very long time, or a few hundred feet off the runway on the taxiway. So, when would that be considered parked?
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Old 27th Dec 2012, 23:42   #23 (permalink)

 
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any approach is complete when ATC cancels your IFRclearance...its that simple
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 01:16   #24 (permalink)
 
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seven:

Quote:
any approach is complete when ATC cancels your IFRclearance...its that simple
That is more of a controller's perspective.
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 01:19   #25 (permalink)
 
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westhawk:

Quote:
....esoteric pedantry.
what forums are about!!

Last edited by aterpster; 28th Dec 2012 at 01:19.
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 01:27   #26 (permalink)
 
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I can tell ya when it's complete, when ATC says so, that's when.

Proof:

Late night (1am), new pilot making first night landing with crosswinds, cleared ILS approach, in weather, at a field with a closed tower, so I didn't think about the coming complication. Break out below radio coversge, vacate the runway, do the "after landing", thank the pax, help get new plane put "to bed" with ground crew who are unfamiliar with new plane--lots of "stuff" happening. Wait, you know what's next....."Sir, the Fire Department called, ATC wants your flight plan closed."

So, the approach is over when ATC says so.

GF
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 01:38   #27 (permalink)
 
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C'mon GF, tell the truth! You received that call at the hotel bar didn't you?
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 02:11   #28 (permalink)
 
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West hawk

I can truthfully say, the call was from the FD, I did ring the local TRACON and I did so sheepishly.

Howver, the department chief, the next day said, he was glad they didn't call him which they had done in the past.

GF

Last edited by galaxy flyer; 28th Dec 2012 at 02:13.
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 02:45   #29 (permalink)
 
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Ya gotta admit my version makes a better story though.

Anyway it's based in truth but for one exception. (you'll figure it out by the end of the story)

I was on temporary work assignment in Springfield, IL and decided to check out in and rent a Cessna from an FBO at Capitol airport so I could fly to Dayton on the weekend for a visit to the AF museum. So a coworker and I flew over there in a 172 and had a great day, staying at the museum until past closing. After having some dinner and driving a rental car around Dayton for awhile, the weather started closing in so we got right outta there and headed back to SPI, arriving after the tower had closed for the night. Being the conscientious instrument rated private pilot I was, I had filed IFR but completely spaced on the fact that I'd need to close my flight plan myself since the tower was closed. It was while having drinks back at the hotel bar that my companion for the day asked how ATC knew we'd arrived safely at SPI. Needless to say my mea culpa call to FSS was embarrassing and it was a contrite me who went back into the bar to finish my drink! Turns out they'd already called airport security, who'd verified the airplane was safely parked in it's tie-down.

So I guess that particular flight ended at the bar.

westhawk

Last edited by westhawk; 28th Dec 2012 at 02:48.
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 03:04   #30 (permalink)

 
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whether you like it or not, when the tower sees you down on the runway and unlikely to takeoff ATC cancels your clearance and the approach is over.

so...when you go to a non tower air port. you have to tell ATC that you are not a threat to other planes (ie you are on the ground in one piece).

good luck
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 03:08   #31 (permalink)
 
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When's the approach really over? When you get slapped, she walks away, or you get her key. Up until then keep working it.
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 08:36   #32 (permalink)

 
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Only 2 replies made me smile.

As to the question my answer is: Who cares really??????
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 17:19   #33 (permalink)
 
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LeadSled...

Quote:
Wherever you fly, your home CAA or whatever, have a look up your AIP, it will probably be there, it is also in Annex 10, Vol.2 somewhere: The phrase "cleared for approach" means the clearance limit is the threshold. Not any other point in space. Look it up to satisfy yourself. This sort of thing is basic, it is not a matter of opinion. You might also find it in UK CAA CAP 413.
You're going to have to show me a reference for that. If you're cleared for an approach, the clearance limit is the missed approach holding waypoint. If a controller thinks that you will likely go missed due to weather they will usually amend the missed approach clearance by giving you a new missed approach clearance with a clearance limit. This is an example directly from Nav Canada ATC MANOPS:


Quote:
ON MISSED APPROACH CLEARED TO THE NORTH

Quote:

BAY VOR VIA VICTOR THREE SEVEN CLIMB TO ONE


SEVEN THOUSAND. UPON LEAVING THREE

THOUSAND TURN LEFT DIRECT MUSKOKA NDB,




PROCEED ON COURSE.

The clearance limit in that clearance is the North Bay VOR.


Quote:
The "missed approach" begins anywhere down the approach that the approach is discontinued, as Westhawk has noted. The design missed approach segment begins at the DH or MDA for the particular approach.



I do know the different segments of the instrument approach procedure. And I agree that a "missed approach" starts anytime you start it! But the missed approach segment, as you mention, is fixed.



CAR 602.127(1) states: "Unless otherwise authorized by the appropriate air traffic control unit, the pilot-in-command of an IFR aircraft shall, when conducting an approach to an aerodrome or a runway, ensure that the approach is made in accordance with the instrument approach procedure."



If ATC doesn't amend your approach clearance, you must make the approach in accordance with the instrument approach procedure. Is the missed approach segment part of the "instrument approach procedure"? Yes, it is. You must therefore follow it, unless you have an amendment to that ATC approach clearance.



Quote:
If you think your clearance limit when "cleared for approach" is the missed approach hold (if there is one) try a missed approach somewhere busy, and you will get a practical demonstration otherwise.



Wow! Show me a regulation that says that I can't do a missed approach when it's 'busy'. I don't give a damn if it's busy or not! And ATC doesn't either. They're required to protect the airspace (if in controlled airspace) from all IFR, and sometimes VFR, traffic when you're operating on an IFR clearance.



Can you show me an approach that doesn't have a missed approach holding point?



You should call up your local IFR area control center and ask them what the clearance limit is when you receive an approach clearance - trust me, they know!


Last edited by italia458; 28th Dec 2012 at 17:22.
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 19:15   #34 (permalink)
 
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'Approach to land'
Means is the approach and Land is the goal.
Fly the approach ,if Land ok,approach is over.
If Go around,a new approach clearance will be given.(once GA is started,approach is over).
If landing at an uncontrolled airport,flight plan is closed when reported to ATCO once on ground.(movile phones not allowed until engine(s) shut off).

Last edited by de facto; 29th Dec 2012 at 02:24.
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 19:27   #35 (permalink)
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1.10.6 Instrument Approach

1.10.6.1 Unless authorized to make a visual approach, an IFR flight must conform to the published instrument approach procedure nominated by ATC.

1.10.6.2 A pilot request to conduct a specific approach should be made prior to STAR clearance issue, or prior to top of descent for arriving aircraft not on a STAR eligible route.

1.10.6.3 Authorization for final approach will be in the form of a clearance for the type of approach as shown on the approach chart title. If visual at the minima, the nominated runway then becomes the clearance limit subject to any further ATC instructions and a clearance to land. In the event that the aircraft is unable to land from the instrument approach or loses visual reference while circling, the aircraft is cleared to carry out the published missed approach unless ATC directs otherwise. The pilot in command must seek further ATC instructions prior to reaching the end of the missed approach procedure.
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 21:08   #36 (permalink)
 
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As quoted by 9.G: (you should include the reference data for that)

Quote:
In the event that the aircraft is unable to land from the instrument approach or loses visual reference while circling, the aircraft is cleared to carry out the published missed approach unless ATC directs otherwise. The pilot in command must seek further ATC instructions prior to reaching the end of the missed approach procedure.
That's pretty clear, IMO. And what happens when you don't get further ATC instructions prior to reaching the end of the missed approach procedure? - you hold! Either as published on the racetrack depicted on the plate, inbound on the published track, or inbound on the track on which you arrived at the missed approach holding point. - TC AIM RAC section.
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 22:35   #37 (permalink)
 
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g.f.:

Quote:
I can tell ya when it's complete, when ATC says so, that's when.

Proof:

Late night (1am), new pilot making first night landing with crosswinds, cleared ILS approach, in weather, at a field with a closed tower, so I didn't think about the coming complication. Break out below radio coversge, vacate the runway, do the "after landing", thank the pax, help get new plane put "to bed" with ground crew who are unfamiliar with new plane--lots of "stuff" happening. Wait, you know what's next....."Sir, the Fire Department called, ATC wants your flight plan closed."

So, the approach is over when ATC says so.
Wrong on two accounts:

1. The issue was failure to close (yes, close, not cancel) an IFR flight plan at an uncontrolled airport. ATC has to hold open the airspace in those circumstances. That makes them very unhappy after some time has passed.

2. ATC doesn't "say so" in these circumstances but they are working from the same book as the pilot, which places the burden on the pilot to close his IFR flight plan once landed at an uncontrolled airport. At a controlled airport the tower closes it for you.

In the air the pilot can elect to cancel IFR, weather permitting, which then closes the IFR flight plan. But, you can't cancel IFR once on the ground, only close the flight plan.
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 22:38   #38 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
That's pretty clear, IMO. And what happens when you don't get further ATC instructions prior to reaching the end of the missed approach procedure? - you hold! Either as published on the racetrack depicted on the plate, inbound on the published track, or inbound on the track on which you arrived at the missed approach holding point. - TC AIM RAC section.
Most FAA IAPs have a charted missed approach holding pattern unlike many countries.

Then again, at major airports ATC will more often than not provide radar vectors when the pilot declares a missed approach.
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 22:49   #39 (permalink)
 
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aterpster

Confession being good for the soul, my post was partly "tongue in cheek" and partly an effort to burnish my karma! Yes, I agree with both your points. The funny part is the day before at a nearby uncontrolled field, I did exactly as you stated. It was the combination of lots happenin' and forgetting that the tower had closed leading to failure to close the flight plan.
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 22:57   #40 (permalink)
 
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AA routinely closed the flight plan by cancelling IFR on approach when visual to that Puerto Rican airport on the west side that was a B52 base made it easier than contacting ATC after landing with a closed tower. It simplified things but may not have been 100% proper.
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