Why did Boeing get rid of top cockpit windows in the 737?
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Why did Boeing get rid of top cockpit windows in the 737?
Something I've been curious about for a long time.
Why has Boeing painted over the 2 little upward-facing windows on each side of the cockpit? I assume they've done this with the introduction of the NG? Although I have a feeling there are some older 737s kicking about without these windows...
As far as I can see, there are no instruments/ gauges etc there now, so why take away some visibility?
Why has Boeing painted over the 2 little upward-facing windows on each side of the cockpit? I assume they've done this with the introduction of the NG? Although I have a feeling there are some older 737s kicking about without these windows...
As far as I can see, there are no instruments/ gauges etc there now, so why take away some visibility?
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IIRC they were used in the 707/727 days for taking star sights. Since the 737 shares the same fuselage, the eyebrow windows got carried forward. I remember reading an article from Boeing which said they were deleted to reduce the cockpit noise levels. Aircraft without the eyebrow windows are also equipped with 10 vortex generators just forward of the main windows. Boeing claimed a ~3 dB (not sure of the value) reduction in noise and appx 10000 $ per year reduction in mx costs. They offer kits for the older acft to remove the windows and install a plug in their places.
Please feel free to correct me
Cheers
PS : I believe they deleted the window in the NGs from mid 2005 onwards.
Please feel free to correct me
Cheers
PS : I believe they deleted the window in the NGs from mid 2005 onwards.
Last edited by iflytb20; 11th Jun 2012 at 18:47. Reason: Added info regarding NGs
iflytb20 is correct, although they are still available as an option on new build aircraft. Supposedly useful on military versions for refuelling.
Not having them saves scratching around for newspapers / magazines / paper towels to stuff up there in order to keep the sun out.
Not having them saves scratching around for newspapers / magazines / paper towels to stuff up there in order to keep the sun out.
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I prefer the ''eyebrow" windows...had them on the DC9 and the earlier 737's.
I don't think they were for star sights...a navigator astrodome would have been more appropriate.
They provide more light in the cockpit during the day, aid keeping things in sight during banks.
I don't think they were for star sights...a navigator astrodome would have been more appropriate.
They provide more light in the cockpit during the day, aid keeping things in sight during banks.
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Yes right back in the days Celestian navigation was done with the help of stars using sextants whether by air or sea navigators. So planes, especially bombers in the second world war had those big windows on the top to allow for a better sighting of the stars.
Today with all available navaids, then inertial nav systems, then now satellite navigation,it has pretty much disappeared. I think no company still makes sextants, even though some nostalgics still might use them ( I heard it is quite a difficult way to navigate)
Today with all available navaids, then inertial nav systems, then now satellite navigation,it has pretty much disappeared. I think no company still makes sextants, even though some nostalgics still might use them ( I heard it is quite a difficult way to navigate)
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Thanks for the replies.
Still seems strange to me - didn't think sun glare is an issue as pilots can and usually do wear sun glasses. And I would've thought any extra visibility would be welcome - especially when turning.
Why would removing the windows affect the installation of vortex generators and/or a reduction in noise...
Still seems strange to me - didn't think sun glare is an issue as pilots can and usually do wear sun glasses. And I would've thought any extra visibility would be welcome - especially when turning.
Why would removing the windows affect the installation of vortex generators and/or a reduction in noise...
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The windows are unrelated to the vortex generators, they were just introduced around the same point in time. Main reason cited in my company was 300 man hours less maintenance per year and airframe which is a considerable amount of money.
Personally i prefer them, especially during circling and visual approaches because they make it easier to keep stuff in sight, however in "my" outfit all planes are delivered without those windows and old planes are retrofitted with a metal plug. Weird thing is, even new planes still had the window shades up there for those never installed windows until last or year or so, just wonder if boeing charged for them.
By the way, i haven't worn sunglassed in the last 10 years or so, works out fine usually, especially in newer planes with those roll-out shades that cover nearly the whole window.
Personally i prefer them, especially during circling and visual approaches because they make it easier to keep stuff in sight, however in "my" outfit all planes are delivered without those windows and old planes are retrofitted with a metal plug. Weird thing is, even new planes still had the window shades up there for those never installed windows until last or year or so, just wonder if boeing charged for them.
By the way, i haven't worn sunglassed in the last 10 years or so, works out fine usually, especially in newer planes with those roll-out shades that cover nearly the whole window.
Last edited by Denti; 11th Jun 2012 at 20:13.
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The FAA used to also have a minimum window area for the cockpit for certification, so adding those eyebrow windows helped meet the requirement. That requirement is now history so Boeing doesn't include the eyebrow windows anymore as standard.
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Very interesting! Thanks for the replies fellas!
Denti, for some reason I also opt to not wear sun glasses (although my experience is no comparison to yours...yet).
Denti, for some reason I also opt to not wear sun glasses (although my experience is no comparison to yours...yet).
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My understanding is the same as zondaracer. Most of our fleet of Douglas/Boeing 717 have them. They're a pain in the butt due to glare and sunburn on bald pate's.
All have been fitted with Alfies, which are reflective aluminium foil screens, cut to size & shape, to block them. As it happens I'll be meeting with Alf, the pilot designer, later this morning.
All have been fitted with Alfies, which are reflective aluminium foil screens, cut to size & shape, to block them. As it happens I'll be meeting with Alf, the pilot designer, later this morning.
Last edited by Capt Claret; 11th Jun 2012 at 22:05.
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Having done quite a few visuals and circle to land in NG and Classics,I dont remember using those small windows...unless you like to keep it romantic and watch the stars in the process
Good thing they got rid of it in my opinion.
Why would that be?protect your eyes and next time you fly a visual and landing into the sun,dont land on the parallel taxiway please
Good thing they got rid of it in my opinion.
I also opt to not wear sun glasses
Last edited by de facto; 12th Jun 2012 at 03:38.
Looks like they haven't been included on either the p-8 Poseidon nor the Wedge tail AWAC, so even the military don't seem that bothered.
Originally Posted by Misdagain
When can you use the eyebrow windows during turns??? Above 60, or more, degrees of bank??? 
They are very handy for that, but since circling approaches are now "on the out", cheaper to fill them in (as well as keeping shiny pates like Claret's sun-free).
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but since circling approaches are now "on the out",
Ah, because if you're using category A minimums you're still in the airport?
In FAA land commercial operations are held to a higher standard. If you're flying yourself around you (should) understand the risks of zero-zero takeoffs or circling approaches. SLF just put their money down but don't really understand what they are getting into so the FAA is tasked to look out for them.
In FAA land commercial operations are held to a higher standard. If you're flying yourself around you (should) understand the risks of zero-zero takeoffs or circling approaches. SLF just put their money down but don't really understand what they are getting into so the FAA is tasked to look out for them.
If circling approaches are now considered "dangerous" in jet transports why aren't they banned for life in small aircraft.
Get back on thread, Bloggs!
Last edited by Capn Bloggs; 12th Jun 2012 at 11:05. Reason: spelin'
Just to put to bed an error, astro nav shots were NEVER taken through the eyebrow windows ever.
For starters the transparency has heaps of distortion. How would a nav get into position for his shot? The sextant they used was a periscopic model by Kollsman (I think) and was fitted to a roof mount just behind the FE on the aircraft centreline. I watched many a fix reduced over the years I was on B707s.
For starters the transparency has heaps of distortion. How would a nav get into position for his shot? The sextant they used was a periscopic model by Kollsman (I think) and was fitted to a roof mount just behind the FE on the aircraft centreline. I watched many a fix reduced over the years I was on B707s.