B17 In flight fire - a good lesson for jet transport pilots
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B17 In flight fire - a good lesson for jet transport pilots
The accident to the B17 "Liberty Bell" was tragic enough although fortunately there was no loss of life.
Photographs show the B17 landing safely in a cornfield but the fire can be seen gathering momentum under the port inboard engine area. Fire crews were unable to reach the aircraft because of the boggy ground and the aircraft was destroyed when the fuel tanks went up.
The chief pilot of the Liberty Foundation, Ray Fowler, has this to say on the website: My highlights in bold type.
"As all pilots know, there are few emergency situations that are more critical than having an in-flight fire. While an in-flight fire is extremely rare, it can (and sometimes does) indiscriminately affect aircraft of any age or type. In-flight fires have led to the loss of not only aircraft, but often can result in catastrophic loss of life. It requires an immediate action on the flight crew, as the integrity of aircraft structure, systems and critical components are in question.
Directly below the B-17 was a farmer’s field and the decision was made to land immediately. Approximately 1 minute and 40 seconds from the radio report of the fire, the B-17 was down safely on the field. Within that 1:40 time frame, the crew shutdown and feathered the number 2 engine, activated the engine’s fire suppression system, lowered the landing gear and performed an on-speed landing. Bringing the B-17 to a quick stop, the crew and passengers quickly and safely exited the aircraft. Overhead in the T-6, Cullen professionally coordinated and directed the firefighting equipment which was dispatched by Aurora Tower to the landing location."
............................................................ ...................................
I have highlighted one important point he makes with regards to in-flight fires. Time and again during jet transport simulator training we are told that an engine fire warning is no great deal. There is great accent on the correct identification of the engine (correct of course) and that there is no need to hurry the actions. Because of this casual approach which is instilled by many simulator instructors, inordinately long delays take place before the first bottle is discharged into the engine.
One operator even states the aircraft should be cleaned up after take off before attention is turned to the fire warning. The mantra `don't rush` is all pervading and the reason offered is the burning engine will eventually fall off the wing and the problem is solved. A minimum action height of 400 ft after take off is stated in some FCOM.
What seems to be forgotten is that a twin engine jet like a 737 may, at the worst case, have a very low rate of climb on one engine with flaps at take off and take more than a minute to reach 400 feet agl. Meanwhile the fire is burning.
There is a difference between `rushing` drills and acting swiftly and professionally. Pilots need to be aware of this and act accordingly.
Photographs show the B17 landing safely in a cornfield but the fire can be seen gathering momentum under the port inboard engine area. Fire crews were unable to reach the aircraft because of the boggy ground and the aircraft was destroyed when the fuel tanks went up.
The chief pilot of the Liberty Foundation, Ray Fowler, has this to say on the website: My highlights in bold type.
"As all pilots know, there are few emergency situations that are more critical than having an in-flight fire. While an in-flight fire is extremely rare, it can (and sometimes does) indiscriminately affect aircraft of any age or type. In-flight fires have led to the loss of not only aircraft, but often can result in catastrophic loss of life. It requires an immediate action on the flight crew, as the integrity of aircraft structure, systems and critical components are in question.
Directly below the B-17 was a farmer’s field and the decision was made to land immediately. Approximately 1 minute and 40 seconds from the radio report of the fire, the B-17 was down safely on the field. Within that 1:40 time frame, the crew shutdown and feathered the number 2 engine, activated the engine’s fire suppression system, lowered the landing gear and performed an on-speed landing. Bringing the B-17 to a quick stop, the crew and passengers quickly and safely exited the aircraft. Overhead in the T-6, Cullen professionally coordinated and directed the firefighting equipment which was dispatched by Aurora Tower to the landing location."
............................................................ ...................................
I have highlighted one important point he makes with regards to in-flight fires. Time and again during jet transport simulator training we are told that an engine fire warning is no great deal. There is great accent on the correct identification of the engine (correct of course) and that there is no need to hurry the actions. Because of this casual approach which is instilled by many simulator instructors, inordinately long delays take place before the first bottle is discharged into the engine.
One operator even states the aircraft should be cleaned up after take off before attention is turned to the fire warning. The mantra `don't rush` is all pervading and the reason offered is the burning engine will eventually fall off the wing and the problem is solved. A minimum action height of 400 ft after take off is stated in some FCOM.
What seems to be forgotten is that a twin engine jet like a 737 may, at the worst case, have a very low rate of climb on one engine with flaps at take off and take more than a minute to reach 400 feet agl. Meanwhile the fire is burning.
There is a difference between `rushing` drills and acting swiftly and professionally. Pilots need to be aware of this and act accordingly.
The difference being that most modern jet airliners have pod-mounted engines, and engine fires are thus physically separated from the wing structure.
... not saying a fire isn't a serious thing, though.
... not saying a fire isn't a serious thing, though.
Read this very comprehensive paper from the UK's Royal Aeronautical Society:- http://www.raes.org.uk/pdfs/SAFITA_Paper.pdf
There is a lot very good stuff in it.
There is a lot very good stuff in it.
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Centaurus,
How would you end up taking more than a minute to reach 400ft AGL in a B737..????
Aren't we supposed to reach Acc. Ht/Alt before shutting off the bad engine, hence we would be climbing with our 'normal' 2 Eng ROC, which I presume would be > 2000 fpm, thus taking just about 12 secs to cross 400ft.
None the less, I've tried in the Sims to do the actions before reaching Acc. ht and believe me it leads to a lot of confusion and utter chaos coz Firstly, your whole sequence goes for a toss. Secondly, now on 1 Eng you will end up taking longer to reach your Acc. ht and finish cleaning up your machine to reach FTO target speed (this defies the whole purpose of the procedure) and Thirdly, if so were the case, the manufacturer would have warranted a procedure to shut down the burnin' engine ASAP.
Believe me, the 'Don't Rush' approach is a life saver. The probability of having an Eng Fire on T/O is a million to one, and the day it happens, you gotta make sure you do things right the first time around, and you can only do that by ensuring your actions are not rushed.
Tc..
How would you end up taking more than a minute to reach 400ft AGL in a B737..????
Aren't we supposed to reach Acc. Ht/Alt before shutting off the bad engine, hence we would be climbing with our 'normal' 2 Eng ROC, which I presume would be > 2000 fpm, thus taking just about 12 secs to cross 400ft.None the less, I've tried in the Sims to do the actions before reaching Acc. ht and believe me it leads to a lot of confusion and utter chaos coz Firstly, your whole sequence goes for a toss. Secondly, now on 1 Eng you will end up taking longer to reach your Acc. ht and finish cleaning up your machine to reach FTO target speed (this defies the whole purpose of the procedure) and Thirdly, if so were the case, the manufacturer would have warranted a procedure to shut down the burnin' engine ASAP.
Believe me, the 'Don't Rush' approach is a life saver. The probability of having an Eng Fire on T/O is a million to one, and the day it happens, you gotta make sure you do things right the first time around, and you can only do that by ensuring your actions are not rushed.
Tc..
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How many modern passenger jets have been lost due to an engine fire?
How many modern passenger jets have been lost due to switching off the wrong engine?
How many modern passenger jets have bene lost when sorting out malfunctions got in the way of ANC?
Golf-Sierra
How many modern passenger jets have been lost due to switching off the wrong engine?
How many modern passenger jets have bene lost when sorting out malfunctions got in the way of ANC?
Golf-Sierra
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Golf-Sierra
Kegworth, January 1989, flight BM092, B737 London-Befast.
1. Fire in engine #1 caused by fan blade failure.
2. Engine #2 shut down in error.
3. ANC got the aircraft to about 400m from the threshold of EMA but that was just where the M1 goes through a slight cutting. Aircraft ploughed into the motorway embankment.
Although not relatives I knew some of those who died and some who miraculously survived.
Cubemaster
Kegworth, January 1989, flight BM092, B737 London-Befast.
1. Fire in engine #1 caused by fan blade failure.
2. Engine #2 shut down in error.
3. ANC got the aircraft to about 400m from the threshold of EMA but that was just where the M1 goes through a slight cutting. Aircraft ploughed into the motorway embankment.
Although not relatives I knew some of those who died and some who miraculously survived.
Cubemaster
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The mantra `don't rush` is all pervading and the reason offered is the burning engine will eventually fall off the wing and the problem is solved.
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I think the saying goes something like
" rules are for the guidance of wise men, and the strict adhearence of fools"
I think the following incidence shows that there are times when it is wise to get the thing on the ground as soon as possible, but it also shows that being careful, which does not always mean slowly, with doing checklist is also important.
I believe crews have to be willing to adapt rules to suit the situation they find thenselves in. Note the engine did come off but appears not to have saved the situation
BOAC Flight 712 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Note it says the flight deck was reused on another B707, now that is what I call recycling
" rules are for the guidance of wise men, and the strict adhearence of fools"
I think the following incidence shows that there are times when it is wise to get the thing on the ground as soon as possible, but it also shows that being careful, which does not always mean slowly, with doing checklist is also important.
I believe crews have to be willing to adapt rules to suit the situation they find thenselves in. Note the engine did come off but appears not to have saved the situation
BOAC Flight 712 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Note it says the flight deck was reused on another B707, now that is what I call recycling
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twin engine jet like a 737 may, at the worst case,
That's an awful long time before you get down to the nitty gritty of going through the usual SOP of captain/first officer agreement of first agreeing on which engine has failed and is on fire. Then the closing of thrust lever, followed by agreement which start lever is cut-off; followed by mutual agreement of which fire switch to actuate followed by agreement on bottle firing. And all this doesn't start until reaching a `safe` height of above 400 feet.
Of course, the chances of that scenario happening is extremely rare indeed. But there again, the chances of a crew losing control and stalling an Air France A330 at 38,000 ft while the captain just happened to be on rest down the back is also very rare indeed. But it happened.
