It is difficult to be churlish with one who admits to being old. I do not share your consummate confidence in AB and AF. BEA and the Judicials, perhaps. BEA has done as expected, no comment. I think there are at least a few in the Boardroom of ABAF who were ready to......."Move along, nothing to see here"
AF, for example had to look at the threat of a strike to replace equipment it was ordered to do prior to 447's ill fated recipient of the very thing addressed by the equipment changeout. UAS or not, AirBurst or not, etc., action is not (was not) done as precautionary, or even as required, and it can be argued there were dead people due a dragging of the feet...... Yet you insist AF and AB were Johnny on Point to find the evidence of an accident they likely had a hand in causing?? Not sensible prior to argument.
O Escritório de Investigações e Análise para a Aviação Civil (BEA, na sigla em francês), órgão do governo da França que apura as causas do acidente com o voo 447 da Air France, espera extrair os dados de uma das caixas-pretas encontradas neste domingo em cerca de duas semanas. Sem ter sido analisado, o equipamento repescado apresenta "bom estado físico", o que eleva as chances de que as informações técnicas do voo tenham sido preservadas.
"The Office of Investigations and Analysis of Civil Aviation (BEA, its acronym in French), France's government agency that is investigating the cause of the crash of Flight 447 with Air France, expects to extract data from a black box found in this Sunday in about two weeks. Although not examined yet, the piece of equipment seems to be in "good shape", which increases the likelihood that technical information from the flight have been preserved."
lateott post #436 ... It would be nice to establish the scale. ....
Here is a suggestion for a possible scale. I have "squared up" the top image, so an exact correspondence of objects is unlikely. The red arrows are all vertical and of equal length.
If this guess is correct, it seems likely that the MU was found in the central region of the debris field.
Might the bottom right-hand object in the top image be a wing?
Nice job PP! I was actually using your image to try to scale mine as well, so I'm glad you posted.
I am now guessing the object to the east is a wing with a substantial piece of fusilage, and the object to the south is the other wing. Engines, APU, landing gear must be in the field above the southern wing-like object. There are two other symmetrical objects in that field.
I believe you noted previously the A330 wingspan is 60.3m.
I have yet to see any photo with a rock in it, so I am guessing all of the returns are debris. The recovery team "lucked out" in a sense (seems like a terrible thing to say...), because I'm sure this would be much more difficult in rocky undersea terrain.
Location: I am where I am and that's all where I am.
Posts: 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by rr_ndb
Even if AF447 plane had an all plastic (non electrical conductive) VS structure it still had an HF antenna in it. And the antenna was not the high current shunt feeder. It´s more than that and much taller.
Do you know why?
Oh, do tell? Is it because the drawings, diagrams, and literature do not in any way indicate there is a wire antenna? Is it because the far end is short circuited to the "larger" "sort of ground plane?"
Location: I am where I am and that's all where I am.
Posts: 660
snowfalcon2, I was wondering if anybody had picked up on the missing pinger. That was supposed to stay attached. So the crash must have been a humdinger to break it loose.
(I also note that Honeywell got some sort of nice product placement in the pictures.)
Why do you say that AB and AF had a hand in causing this accident? Are you privy to something that we others aren't? No one yet knows how the accident happened. There is a lot of informed and knowledgeable speculation of which you have been an honourable part of but lets not go too far and let our prejudices run away with us shall we?
Be better if the recovered CSMU was sent straight to Honeywell for readout.Could be a tricky data extraction process,may as well be attempted by the best qualified hands the first time.
Le module récupéré dimanche doit encore être transporté au BEA où il sera décortiqué dans une dizaine de jours. L'objectif est maintenant de repêcher la seconde boîte noire, celle enregistrant les conversations dans le cockpit, avant que la marine nationale vienne chercher le premier boîtier afin d'acheminer les deux enregistreurs en même temps.
.../...
"The module recovered Sunday should still be transported to the BEA where it will be decorticated in about ten days. The objective is now to recover the second black box, the one recording the conversations in the cockpit, before the French Navy comes to take the first box in order to take both recorders at the same time."
Dès que les deux enregistreurs auront été retrouvés, un navire de la marine nationale viendra les récupérer sur l'Île de Sein pour les emmener en Guyane. Il semble exclu qu'une escale soit prévue au Brésil par crainte d'une saisie de ces pièces essentielles au déroulement des enquêtes technique et judicaire. Puis, à bord d'un des avions de ligne quotidiens depuis Cayenne, les enregistreurs seront acheminés au Bourget au BEA qui dispose des bancs spécialisés de lecture.
.../...
"As soon as the two recorders are found, a ship of the Marine will join The Ile de Sein to take them to (French) Guyana. It seems excluded that a stopover is planned in Brazil for fear of a seizure of these essential pieces to the technical and judicial investigations. Then, on board one of the daily flight from Cayenne, the recorders will be conveyed to Le Bourget where the BEA has the specialized reading benches."
NB: Airlines operating between Cayenne and Paris (Orly) are Air France and Air Caraïbes.
The first article in "Le Figaro" puzzled me because it is clearly stated that the Marine ship would wait for the second "box" to be recovered before going to Cayenne. It seemed amazing to me that the Authorities would wait, considering the utmost importance to start analysis of the DFDR as soon as possible.
The second article in "Le Point" simply confirms my interrogation while adding kind comments about Brazilian possible seizure.
My personal feeling is that the CVR might already had already been located and might be recovered soon. It is the only way where we can admit to waste a so much valuable time.
Edit: "Le Figaro" has slightly amended its article. It should be read:
"The module recovered Sunday, sealed and stored in water should still be transported...
Last edited by Squawk_ident; 2nd May 2011 at 10:36.
And here is the main field scaled with Picky Perkins' estimates:
@PP your correlation between the two sidescans is truly correct
the distance vertical between the lines then is 4.3m (14 feet, but I am not shure if the french underwaterspezialists will use pied´s or meters) , the distance horizontal between the "mayby line nummbers" is 50 m
Be better if the recovered CSMU was sent straight to Honeywell for readout.Could be a tricky data extraction process,may as well be attempted by the best qualified hands the first time.
I think you are alluding to the Perpignan accident? Those recorders (same models as on AF447 btw) were recovered after just 2 and 3 days, respectively, from a depth of only 40 meters. Nevertheless BEA spent a whole month on unsuccessful attemps to read the memory cards and then gave up. From the report: "They were examined at Honeywell, manufacturer of the recorders, in the United States on 5 and 6 January 2009 in the context of an International Commission of Inquiry. Some short-circuits were discovered on the cards. Eliminating the short-circuits allowed a complete read-out of the data."
But it seems that BEA have learnt from this experience and are getting better. Here's a summary of their participation in the Yemenia crash: Point d'information, 30 juin 2010 . I've found no English translation on their website, so here's my own attempt:
Quote:
4. Flight recorder readings
The flight recorders were recovered on 29 August 2009 and, on request of the Comorean authorities, immediately transported to the BEA. Due to the damaged state of the memory cards, data extraction required two weeks work. Nevertheless, the major part of the information contained in the two recorders (one for the aircraft parameters, the other for the flight deck conversations) could be read. This readout was done in the presence of all members of the international investigation committee, and of a representative from Honeywell, manufacturer of the recorder. It allowed, in the opinion of BEA, to determine the circumstances that have led to the accident [...].
Quote from Le Figaro, translated by Squawk Ident: "...The objective is now to recover the second black box, the one recording the conversations in the cockpit, before the French Navy comes to take the first box in order to take both recorders at the same time."
(Thanks for the fluent translation, by the way.)
Quote from Squawk Ident: "The first article in "Le Figaro" puzzled me because it is clearly stated that the Marine ship would wait for the second "box" to be recovered before going to Cayenne. It seemed amazing to me that the Authorities would wait, considering the utmost importance to start analysis of the DFDR as soon as possible."
I don't infer that this understandable plan is non-amendable. They've got about three days to find the CVR memory-module. My guess is that, if that "objective" (finding the CVR before the naval ship arrives) is not achieved, plan "b" will be launched. "DODAR", as we used to say: a continuing process.
PS Looking at some of the work presented here in the last 12 hours or so, I'm amazed at the perception, cunning and expertise of other contributors to this thread.
The BEA submitted its report</span> to the Comorian authorities</span> which published never anything, of fear of causing offense</span> Yemenia and the Yemeni authorities.</span>
I don't infer that this understandable plan is non-amendable. They've got about three days to find the CVR memory-module. My guess is that, if that "objective" (finding the CVR before the naval ship arrives) is not achieved, plan "b" will be launched. "DODAR", as we used to say: a continuing process.
I guess you are right. The next three days might be interesting to follow, hopefully. I hope we will have a good news about the CVR very soon. May DODAR be with us! (and also Google and our favorite Forum...)
BEA spent a whole month on unsuccessful attemps to read the memory cards and then gave up. From the report: "They were examined at Honeywell, manufacturer of the recorders, in the United States on 5 and 6 January 2009 in the context of an International Commission of Inquiry. Some short-circuits were discovered on the cards. Eliminating the short-circuits allowed a complete read-out of the data."
Thanks for that.
Interesting that the BEA had problems with memory cards and Honeywell found shorts on the board. Sounds like it could have been shock vibration damage to the die connection wires rather than water ingress.
The recovered memory unit housing we see from yesterday's recovery looks in remarkably good shape to me - the indent does not seem to extend beyond the weld seam, and although there is a bit of rust, the seam appears to be intact. If the seal is compromised, then the integrated memory circuit packages will eventually get exposed to 400atmos pressure, and it's possible that the void inside the chip package will collapse onto the micro circuit die. In the past, Aerospace or Mil parts have used ceramic packaging for integrated circuits, with plastic, which is a lot cheaper to fabricate, the norm for commercial applications. There has been some use of plastic in mil aerospace apps in recent years, but one of the problems with plastic packages is that they are porous and allow water to penetrate the void. So, for either package, the void could collapse and crack the die. Or, on the other hand, a plastic package could be subject to a slow increase in pressure gradient (leak through a micro crack in the cylindrical metal containment housing), and it could fill with water and expose the die to corrosion. There are a few manufacturers around who will put die into ceramic packages, but not that many, and usually the cost is hugely expensive compared with plastic. If there is any moisture present around the die, then any application of voltage will cause an electrolyses effect and irreversible damage. So, If there is any suspicion that water has penetrated, the most like course of action is for a trip back to the manufacturer for the top of the package to be removed under controlled conditions and a session of drying and cleaning of corrosive deposits in the hope that maybe something useful can be recovered. Of course, It's quite possible that the CVR/FDR manufacturer has either obtained a special package for the FLASH ram, or has encapsulated the devices in some form of epoxy resin to cover the contingency of water ingress.
It's also interesting that the BEA allowed Honeywell to dig into the electronics. In section 2.4.1 of the EUROCAE document: MINIMUM OPERATIONAL PERFORMANCE SPECIFICATION FOR CRASH PROTECTED AIRBORNE RECORDER SYSTEMS, it states:
NOTE 1: Microscopic examination of the surface characteristics of memory devices is not acceptable as means of data recovery.
NOTE 2: The repair of individual memory devices is not permitted.......
Seems a rather restrictive policy considering that all measures need to be applied to discover the truth - maybe it's a legal issue...
On a more hopeful note, we know from the interim report that the G forces experienced for the majority of passengers (front to rear of aircraft) was in the range 100 to 200G (from pathology), so it is therefore reasonable to say that the FDR and CVR experience something similar or less, and was then subjected to 400atmos pressure for 2 years. Given that these devices must pass certification at 3400 G (6.5ms) and also be able to resist 600 atmos (up to 30 days to pass certification test), I think it reasonable to assume that the contents have survived even after all this time. However, I'm not so confident about the FADEC's and the other 12 or 13 subsystems with non-volitile memory devices which would have minimal, if at all, protection from pressure.
BEA and the Yemenair A310-300 accident at Moroni, Comores
noske and rotor12,
As you know, the BEA was only one of the participants in the Yemenair accident investigation, which protocols dictate was the responsibility of the tiny state where the A310 crashed: Comores. Their agency, ANACM (Agence Nationale de l’Aviation Civile et de la Météorologie) has not closed its deliberation.
The logistical and political difficulties faced by expert accident investigators working abroad in third-world countries were the subject of a recent programme on BBC Radio4:
