B777 Cross Wind Landings
At least I've worked out how to fly the nose-wheel on instead of trying to hold it off in a fruitless endeavour to soften it's impact
SpaceNeedle,
Well done, for shooting yourself in the foot! In support of Nil defects, our 777s use the following limits:
Well done, for shooting yourself in the foot! In support of Nil defects, our 777s use the following limits:
Maximum crosswind, takeoff - dry: 40 knots
Maximum crosswind, takeoff - wet: 25 knots
Maximum crosswind, landing dry or wet: 40 knots
Maximum crosswind, takeoff and landing - icy, slush,standing water: 15 knots
Maximum crosswind, takeoff - wet: 25 knots
Maximum crosswind, landing dry or wet: 40 knots
Maximum crosswind, takeoff and landing - icy, slush,standing water: 15 knots
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Hi. The first is one of the 1% landings
YouTube - Korean Air Lines Boeing 777-2B5(ER) Heavy CrossWind Landing @NARITA RWY16R
The second.
YouTube - Korean Air Boeing 777 A very bad landing!!!
YouTube - Korean Air Lines Boeing 777-2B5(ER) Heavy CrossWind Landing @NARITA RWY16R
The second.
YouTube - Korean Air Boeing 777 A very bad landing!!!
Last edited by Bolty McBolt; 26th Jul 2010 at 22:05. Reason: youtube link inop
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YouTube - Korean Air Boeing 777 A very bad landing!!!
Hey, this look very much like some of my landings! Always waiting for the FOQA guys to call me out but those dreaded calls never came. So one fine day got up enough nerve and pestered the FOQA guys to checked out some of my untidy landings like the one above........they were untidy allright, but the FOQA guys assured me that nothing untoward happened; the aircrafts were fine and the bosses up the foodchain took them to be the lousy landings of lousy pilot on an equally lousy day. Only my pride went down the toilet.....................
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CX B777 landing with full crab
YouTube - Boeing 777 Crosswind Landing Cathay Pacific Hong Kong Kai Tak Airport ?? ????
This looks similar to one of my lousy landings. Tried to decrab and straighten the nose to align but somehow I ended up with something like this!. There were times I did a perfect decrab but something like this happened a couple of times. Like a former skipper of me told me; from flare height to touchdown is sometimes no man's territory.
This looks similar to one of my lousy landings. Tried to decrab and straighten the nose to align but somehow I ended up with something like this!. There were times I did a perfect decrab but something like this happened a couple of times. Like a former skipper of me told me; from flare height to touchdown is sometimes no man's territory.
Some of my best landings, crosswind or not, have come from landing with a definite rate-of-descent on. I've found that if I try to reduce the ROD to zero as I touch down, the speedbrakes deploy and immediately drop the airframe the length of the oleos. Letting the aircraft settle onto the tarmac in a flared attitude seems to take up the slack in the legs before the lift dumping really takes effect: if you get it *just* right, the vertical component of the fuselage velocity reaches close to zero as you reach the limit of oleo compression and *stays there*.
In fact, if you just increase the pitch a few degs. at 25-30R and hold it, the aeroplane will do the rest. Funny old thing, that's what the manuals say!
In fact, if you just increase the pitch a few degs. at 25-30R and hold it, the aeroplane will do the rest. Funny old thing, that's what the manuals say!
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I'm not sure why there seems to be any great mystery about x wind landing the 777. The same thing that works well on the 757, works on the 767, and certainly works on the 777.
Flare at about 30ish RA, thrust reduction as required, at the 10' call a gentle decrab with a bit of into wind aileron, works a treat everytime on 200 & 300 variants. There is no great mystery here, look at the far end of the runway (RVR permitting) and fly the aeroplane. A damn sight easier than a pitts or an extra.
I think some guys on here would benefit from 5 hours of circuits in an aeroplane with conventional undercart.
Flare at about 30ish RA, thrust reduction as required, at the 10' call a gentle decrab with a bit of into wind aileron, works a treat everytime on 200 & 300 variants. There is no great mystery here, look at the far end of the runway (RVR permitting) and fly the aeroplane. A damn sight easier than a pitts or an extra.
I think some guys on here would benefit from 5 hours of circuits in an aeroplane with conventional undercart.
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Space Needle,
If it was level D simulator then it is extremely close to the actual aircraft. Refer to PART 60 FAA for explanation about different levels of fidelity for simulators.
If it was level D simulator then it is extremely close to the actual aircraft. Refer to PART 60 FAA for explanation about different levels of fidelity for simulators.
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Having observed a good number of cross wind landings in the sim and a/c I will offer my 2 pence worth.
Firstly, the simulator is generally a little less forgiving than the a/c, don't get too disheartended if the sim lands firmly.
I have traditionally, due to previous types used the crab technique until the flare. This works OK on the triple, but with only a little practice the wing down works better.
If the opportunity presents itself on your next sim cx, set the sim up to autoland in about 30kts across. The aircraft will start to decrab fairly early, a bit before most pilots who are advocates of this technique would do. At about 75r drop out the A/P and do your best to freeze the controls where they are. Flare slightly earlier than for a normal approach (the a/c is cross controlled and less efficient).
Once that works out OK, try pushing back the point at which the A/P is disconnected, once that works, start increasing the cross wind up to 40 kts.
You now know how to do the wing down in a 777!
Be aware though that the Boeing manual contains an advisory note that pure wing down above 34kts (I think, dont have the book to hand) results in degraded ground clearance. The is also a graph that shows what you will dink depending on bank/pich angle.
Practically speaking, most folks I have watched do use a mix of both techniques in strong crosswinds
Firstly, the simulator is generally a little less forgiving than the a/c, don't get too disheartended if the sim lands firmly.
I have traditionally, due to previous types used the crab technique until the flare. This works OK on the triple, but with only a little practice the wing down works better.
If the opportunity presents itself on your next sim cx, set the sim up to autoland in about 30kts across. The aircraft will start to decrab fairly early, a bit before most pilots who are advocates of this technique would do. At about 75r drop out the A/P and do your best to freeze the controls where they are. Flare slightly earlier than for a normal approach (the a/c is cross controlled and less efficient).
Once that works out OK, try pushing back the point at which the A/P is disconnected, once that works, start increasing the cross wind up to 40 kts.
You now know how to do the wing down in a 777!
Be aware though that the Boeing manual contains an advisory note that pure wing down above 34kts (I think, dont have the book to hand) results in degraded ground clearance. The is also a graph that shows what you will dink depending on bank/pich angle.
Practically speaking, most folks I have watched do use a mix of both techniques in strong crosswinds
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Yelena, your thread certainly brings out a number of closet B777 aces!
As for Old Smokey, woody and kickapoo......so refreshing to see such humility in this testostrone driven business.
As for Old Smokey, woody and kickapoo......so refreshing to see such humility in this testostrone driven business.
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SpaceNeedle,
Well done, for shooting yourself in the foot
Well done, for shooting yourself in the foot
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I seriously need some input here,
I used to fly the 738 for 5-6 years and now I'm doing my transition to the T7,
I would say i could do a 35kts Xwind landing on a 738 with my eyes closed and hands tied up!!!
In the T7, I'm now going koo koo!! WTF..... is like, I used to land the main wheels with the crab on the 73 and then apply ruder and aileron to fix the B***....or I would fly it down to the ground and level off with the horizon right before touch down and applying a bit more thrust during flair not to have the nose up attitude in order not get blown away... Always made perfect!!
Lower pitch...Higher power setting just did it.....
Now, in the T7, I can't have flare at lower pitch (3 - 4) and add more thrust to compensate for it cause we are not allowed to over-ride the A/T,
on the other hand, in the sim, I'm blown to one side of the centre line on each and every landing when i use the suggested 4-5 degrees pitch during the final phase of the flare!!
not to mention it seems like I need full freaking rudder to align my self with the centre line.. (35 kts Xwind, not gust)....
I really appreciate any input from the B777 experienced boys here!!! oh yeah, I've fully read the FCTM and all other manuals with regards to the suggested techniques..
I used to fly the 738 for 5-6 years and now I'm doing my transition to the T7,
I would say i could do a 35kts Xwind landing on a 738 with my eyes closed and hands tied up!!!
In the T7, I'm now going koo koo!! WTF..... is like, I used to land the main wheels with the crab on the 73 and then apply ruder and aileron to fix the B***....or I would fly it down to the ground and level off with the horizon right before touch down and applying a bit more thrust during flair not to have the nose up attitude in order not get blown away... Always made perfect!!
Lower pitch...Higher power setting just did it.....
Now, in the T7, I can't have flare at lower pitch (3 - 4) and add more thrust to compensate for it cause we are not allowed to over-ride the A/T,
on the other hand, in the sim, I'm blown to one side of the centre line on each and every landing when i use the suggested 4-5 degrees pitch during the final phase of the flare!!
not to mention it seems like I need full freaking rudder to align my self with the centre line.. (35 kts Xwind, not gust)....
I really appreciate any input from the B777 experienced boys here!!! oh yeah, I've fully read the FCTM and all other manuals with regards to the suggested techniques..
Hmmm. What do your sim instructors have to say about it?
I would be wary of attempting to use a non-SOP technique from another aircraft. From what you describe, it sounds like you’re flaring maybe a little too much if you’re picking up significant drift in the de-crab? The wing produces a lot of ground effect, counterbalanced a bit by crossed controls and slip angles.
As for the rudder, I have yet to run out of authority. The 777 is a fair bit bigger in all dimensions than the 737 (which is what I came from, too) and if you attempt to align your heading with that of the runway at the same angular rate, you’ll be trying to move metal much more quickly. Maybe slow down the manoeuvre a tad?
No two sims are alike, in my experience. When I converted onto type, one sim rattled your teeth and the other one was always like butter, no matter what you did with the aircraft. When you get onto the real thing, I bet you don’t have any problems.
I would be wary of attempting to use a non-SOP technique from another aircraft. From what you describe, it sounds like you’re flaring maybe a little too much if you’re picking up significant drift in the de-crab? The wing produces a lot of ground effect, counterbalanced a bit by crossed controls and slip angles.
As for the rudder, I have yet to run out of authority. The 777 is a fair bit bigger in all dimensions than the 737 (which is what I came from, too) and if you attempt to align your heading with that of the runway at the same angular rate, you’ll be trying to move metal much more quickly. Maybe slow down the manoeuvre a tad?
No two sims are alike, in my experience. When I converted onto type, one sim rattled your teeth and the other one was always like butter, no matter what you did with the aircraft. When you get onto the real thing, I bet you don’t have any problems.
Folks,
What are the autoland limits x-wind for the T7, and how does that do it?
For what it is worth, I always preferred slipping across the wind ( aka "wing down") on the 767, which is what the AP did below 500'.
With the B747/2/3/4 on a wet runway I preferred landing with the drift on, particularly in lousy viz, but would kick the drift off on a dry runway.
Whatever, in all cases you MUST maintain the attitude, let the nose drop as you kick the drift off and guess what --- big crunch ---- just like with no drift, and not controlling the pitch on any landing.
Tootle pip!!
PS: Would love to have flown the T7, if the sim. is anything to go by.
What are the autoland limits x-wind for the T7, and how does that do it?
For what it is worth, I always preferred slipping across the wind ( aka "wing down") on the 767, which is what the AP did below 500'.
With the B747/2/3/4 on a wet runway I preferred landing with the drift on, particularly in lousy viz, but would kick the drift off on a dry runway.
Whatever, in all cases you MUST maintain the attitude, let the nose drop as you kick the drift off and guess what --- big crunch ---- just like with no drift, and not controlling the pitch on any landing.
Tootle pip!!
PS: Would love to have flown the T7, if the sim. is anything to go by.
Differences in mass-inertia response.
Aerodynamic control response, amount of rudder required as speed decreases. Roll-Yaw ratio, pitch rate and pitch damping; ground effect (higher in T7).
Simulators may not provide a realistic side force - lateral acceleration, thus essential body feedback is lacking. This can be a big issue for aircraft with lateral directional characteristics where fine control depends on good feedback.
Fly as per the book to provide a datum, then with experience evaluate each of the above factors to optimise technique.
Attempting to use a previous type as a datum can be confusing. All aircraft fly, and can be controlled in a similar manner, but similar is not always very close to 'the same as'.
Aerodynamic control response, amount of rudder required as speed decreases. Roll-Yaw ratio, pitch rate and pitch damping; ground effect (higher in T7).
Simulators may not provide a realistic side force - lateral acceleration, thus essential body feedback is lacking. This can be a big issue for aircraft with lateral directional characteristics where fine control depends on good feedback.
Fly as per the book to provide a datum, then with experience evaluate each of the above factors to optimise technique.
Attempting to use a previous type as a datum can be confusing. All aircraft fly, and can be controlled in a similar manner, but similar is not always very close to 'the same as'.
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I've been on 747-400's for years and have a 777 conversion in the near future.
So just to confirm ... there is no risk at all of hitting a pod on the 777?
(Unlike the 747 where its a VERY big issue in strong X-winds).
So just to confirm ... there is no risk at all of hitting a pod on the 777?
(Unlike the 747 where its a VERY big issue in strong X-winds).
Unlike the 747 where its a VERY big issue in strong X-winds
there is no risk at all of hitting a pod on the 777?
Last edited by wiggy; 23rd Mar 2017 at 21:18.
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A pod scrape is possible on the 777, Boeing provides a graph in the FCTM. It depends on the pitch attitude.
Conditions
Conditions
- pitch about main gear centreline
- Static strut compression
- valid for all control surface positions
- valid for all flap detents
