Well Bungfai asked a pretty simple question regarding tail strikes in the B777-300 which is a little different animal that the 300ER in that it does not have the semi-levered gear on it. There is more to flying the B777-300 than just "pulling on the pole" and your sugestion that some how old school techniques simply override all that we have learned about ths aircraft sometimes do not apply.
For starters here are some of the ways that you can kiss the tail on the 777 and as I reacall many of these apply to your favorite airplane, the L1011, of which I have more than a few hours as well.
To start in order of occurance:
#1 Missed trimed due to out of CG effects
#2 Miss use of the flight director
#3 Alternate Aft CG applications
#4 Early rotation
#5 Agressive rotation as in pulling on the pole
Your CRM comments are somewhat over the top. Based on your stated experience, I think I have you beat and I still learn something from other pilots almost every week. Many of them are younger and have less time, type ratings, etc. but none the less they still are able to teach me something as long as I keep an open mind.
By the way I have several friends that have flown the SR71, but that hardly qualifies me to comment on that aircraft.
I don't think 411A is in charge of anything more than ferrying a few L10ll's from boneyard to MRO facilities these days. Certainly not any traditional airline work. Just dig up a crew (no pun inteneded), and move this old Lockheed to some place better.
"... Tail clearance is reduced during takeoffs performed in strong gusty winds and crosswinds because of the lift loss incurred by flight control inputs, primarily spoilers. With very large inputs, this loss can be significant (see figs. 3 and 4).
Approximately two years ago, Boeing revised wording in all production model flight crew training manuals (FCTM) to incorporate input from industry and safety professionals regarding tail strikes during strong and gusty winds. The Boeing FCTM recommends ...
"... Boeing 777 tail strike protection.
Timely elevator input can help avoid tail strikes on both takeoff and landing. The tail strike protection command (TSP CMD ) is summed with the pilot’s input to form a total elevator command. The TSP CMD is limited in size to 10 degrees, which allows the pilot to overcome its effects, if desired, by pulling the column farther aft. The size of the TSP CMD is controlled by excessive tailskid rate relative to a nominal threshold of tailskid rate, and by excessive nearness of the skid to the runway, relative to a nearness threshold. Different thresholds are used for takeoff and landing. The TSP CMD is limited to commanding nose down increments only. Tailskid height and rate are computed from radio altimeter signals, pitch attitude, pitch rate, vertical speed, and the length between the radio altimeter location and the tailskid location. A complementary filter is used to provide acceptably smooth rate and height signals. Provisions are included to account for the bending of the forward fuselage when the nose wheel gear lifts off the ground...."
[Boeing's _Aero_ Magazine, 1st Q 2007, Tail Strike Prevention, by Capt. Dave Carbaugh, Chief Pilot, Flight Operations Safety]
Last edited by IGh : 16th October 2009 at 19:51.
Reason: add link to _Aero_ Magazine
I've watched it time and again in long(er) bodied airplanes.
Heavy weight takeoff, gusty winds...and yet, dispite discussion about this prior to the takeoff maneuver, some First Officers continue to use a rapid rotation technique...and in doing so, tailscrapes can be expected.
I have not infrequently discussed the need with copilots in conditions of strong crosswind, contaminated runways or poor visibility that the rotation must be completely standard and at a normal rate. Then I have been startled when the wretch wrenches the thing off the runway 'in an attempt to get airborne quickly and cleanly'. It doesn't work on a large, heavy aeroplane, and seemingly, no amount of discussion gets the point through. It is only when they see a take-off rotate up close of a large heavy type that the lesson gets through some numbskulls!
It is apparent that is overwhelmingly the most likely cause here. Inexperience, lack of thought, lack of understanding.
...completely standard and at a normal rate. Then I have been startled when the wretch wrenches the thing off the runway 'in an attempt to get airborne quickly and cleanly'. It doesn't work on a large, heavy aeroplane, .....
Quote:
It is apparent that is overwhelmingly the most likely cause here. Inexperience, lack of thought, lack of understanding.
In spades, sadly.
When young'uns start listening to more experienced folks, instead of ....'never mind the facts, my mind is made up'... will it change.
In the meantime, heavy weight takeoffs are mine...except, if the First Officer knows what he is doing.
Fortunately, my present one does...an absolute pleasure to fly with.
As I have just renewed my TRE/IRE, he will be promoted to the LHS, shortly.
Then, would I put my family on his flight? Remembering, the Commander is in charge, not others...
Yup, sure would.
At age 29, he is a class act.
A superb pilot....and futuire Commander.
NB.
He has also flown the A320...I will not repeat what he has to say about this aeroplane....as it is nothing to write home about.
Using clean language.
I've found the Airbus 320s and 330s far better aircraft to fly than the 1011's.
Does that make me controversial or what!
Times have moved on 30 years.
Get with it
Maybe, maybe not.
In some air carriers, the 'older ones' are still in charge, and will continuaually turn the screws accordingly.
Shape up...or ship out.
Makes no difference to me....the pay is the same.
Howsomever...there are exceptions.
For these guys, rapid promotion, and they are welcome.
For starters here are some of the ways that you can kiss the tail on the 777 and as I reacall many of these apply to your favorite airplane, the L1011, of which I have more than a few hours as well.
To start in order of occurance:
#1 Missed trimed due to out of CG effects
#2 Miss use of the flight director
#3 Alternate Aft CG applications
#4 Early rotation
#5 Agressive rotation as in pulling on the pole
In my limited L-1011 experance, 32 years on the program and 22 of those years in customer support, I worked or assisted in 7 or 8 L-1011 tail drags. Not one of them was on takeoff they just didn't happen.
I agree that most of the L1011 tail strikes at Delta at least were during landings. Holding off for that smooth touch down had consequences.
Of all the tail strikes in the past 20+ years, how many were when the F/O was flying? Probably less than half. Good grief, some of you guys make it sound like ONLY the Capt/Commander is capable of handling the BIG jets. Get a grip on your selves as this is simply a figment of your over active imagination.
Not wanting to stir this up any more, but shouldn't incorrect rotation on takeoff by any crew member be completely sorted out in the simulator? I would have thought that special attention to such things would be part of the training & testing programme on an aircraft such as the 777, A240, etc as they have very long fuselages.
Proper rotation techniques are taught in initail training but like everything else, events beyond the norm do happen. I'll repeat it again just incase you missed the first post. "Pulling on the pole" is usually not the reason for a tail strike. There are many other issues that come into play.
Certainly not a Boeing term.
!
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