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 28th Oct 2008, 08:52 #1 (permalink) Thread Starter   Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Scandinavia Age: 40 Posts: 120 Temperature vs. Fuel Density All, Of course density changes with temperature. Is there any constant that can be used to find our density with just the temperature available? Jet A1 considered. Brgds Rookie
 28th Oct 2008, 09:56 #2 (permalink) Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Sydney NSW Posts: 506 any help? You are really asking for the coefficient of thermal expansion of a family of kerosenes. It is given the Greek symbol “Beta” and is 0.95 – 1.00 per degree Celsius. Unfortunately it does vary with temperature as indeed do the thermal expansion properties of plain old water. Suppose you had a 1000 cc of kerosene at 15 deg C and it weighed 800gm. If the coefficient of thermal expansion is 0.001 per deg C then the change in volume down to 5 deg C and up to 25 deg C will be 1000 x 0.001 x10 = 10 cc The weight of the kerosene is still 800gm, only the volume has changed. So the specific gravity is 800/990 = 0.808 at 5 deg C for 0.800 at 15 deg C and 800/1010 = 0.782 at 25 deg C Points to note are that a) coefficient of thermal expansion is not a constant over the whole range of temperatures you are likely to meet; b) at very cold temperatures the fuel is no longer purely liquid; c) what are the effects of the additives? From memory F35 AVTUR is specified within a window of acceptable specific gravity of 0.775 – 0.840 but generally speaking pans out to be 0.803 and with the usual dyestuffs and additives has a coefficient of 0.99 per degree Celsius but I am none too sure about that last figure.
 28th Oct 2008, 10:07 #3 (permalink) Join Date: May 2008 Location: Mars Age: 9 Posts: 226 I see the Airbus fuel readout gives a density adjusted figure. Does this mean that putting in 10 tons of hot fuel, say at 25 degrees, the cockpit guage will actually read slightly less. i.e. fuel at standard 15 degrees? Or, as I think it does, wil it read 10 tons and will slowly contract to less as the outside temperature drops. In otherwords what we read on the guage is what we get? Thoughts?
 28th Oct 2008, 10:46 #4 (permalink) Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Stonehaven Posts: 45 Any further help? Jet A1 is a mixture of two hydrocarbon liquids distilled from crude oil. These liquids or "cuts" are kerosene and naphtha. There are slight differences in these cuts depending on the temperatures of the distillation process and the crudes used. The cuts are within a specific range and therfore are not one fixed density. Jet A1 is therefore not a fixed density either but within an allowable range. In summer Jet A1 is a 50/50 mix of these two liquids and in winter the naphtha proportion is increased by about 5% to allow for the lower temperatures encountered. If you wish to see the full spec, Goggle ASTM Jet A1 Specification. In my day we also used to add anti static and an anti icing additives. These are very small amounts and will have little impact on the overall SG. Sulphur free Jet A1 is normally water white in colour. If there is any water present, which there should not be, the Jet A1 will be a "milky white" colour. If the Jet A1 is sold as heating oil it is known as paraffin oil. This product has a dye added to it to distinguish it from Aviation quality Jet A1. The dye is usually pink or blue depending on the company selling it. (e.g. In the UK these products were sold as Aladin Pink or Esso Blue paraffin oil.) Other than the colour paraffin oil is Jet A1. So including the info in the previous thread, the result is that there is not a simple constant you can apply to temperature to give you density.
 28th Oct 2008, 14:36 #5 (permalink) Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: AEP Age: 74 Posts: 1,425 Jet fuel weight and temperature I fly a 747-200, 10 tanks option. In our books, the max fuel is 166,400 kg for full tanks. It is a limitation. xxx Should it be hot weather, we top the tanks, and barely can put 155,000 kg. In Siberia, in winter, topping the tanks, it is possible to fill 170,000+ kg... That is over the weight limitations. Illegal... xxx One thing to remember - Fuel is sold in litres, or gallons... by volume. If you buy COLD fuel, you get a discount... HOT fuel is... more expensive. Your jet engines only know weight and mass... not litres. xxx So, instruct fuelers to fill the tanks at the time of day fuel is cold. Stay away from fuel trucks, the sun heats the fuel quickly. Underground tanks might be better. But... if you top your tanks with cold fuel, the sun will expand fuel in the tanks. And your tanks will drip... xxx In my little car, I buy cold gasoline... early morning. I do not top the tank. Happy contrails
16th Nov 2008, 21:42   #6 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Scandinavia
Age: 40
Posts: 120
Quote:
 You are really asking for the coefficient of thermal expansion of a family of kerosenes. It is given the Greek symbol “Beta” and is 0.95 – 1.00 per degree Celsius.
Yes! Thanks!

0.95 - 1.00 per degree celsius is exactly what I'm looking for. But is there any "standard density"? If I only have the temp and a constant I can't calculate my density unless I know what the density is at let's say 15 degrees?!

/Rookie

16th Nov 2008, 23:40   #7 (permalink)

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Both Emispheres
Posts: 226
Quote:
 Originally Posted by BelArgUSA In my little car, I buy cold gasoline... early morning. I do not top the tank.
A sensible proposition, so I made some exact calculation for you, to get a figure of the saving you achieved so far.

First factor to consider, c'mon, you don't use the car that much.
Second, you haven't stayed very long in Argentina, as apparently you cannot keep yourself quiet in your life
Third, there is not much thermal excursion in Buenos Aires.
Finally, fuel there is cheap anyway (in western terms).

Without boring you with the math, I've calculated that you saved only AR\$ 32.50. A much better saving would have been made by running the car on natural gas, even if like a taxi driver (!!!) told me once, el gas esta para la cocina.

Enough anyway for a decent bife!

17th Nov 2008, 04:16   #8 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Where the Quaboag River flows, USA
Age: 64
Posts: 3,159
Quote:
 From memory F35 AVTUR is specified within a window of acceptable specific gravity of 0.775 – 0.840 but generally speaking pans out to be 0.803 and with the usual dyestuffs and additives has a coefficient of 0.99 per degree Celsius
There's the answer, MD80rookie. It does vary, fairly widely and is a factor, if filling the tanks is a normal operation. The fueler should be able to provide that fuel's current SG.

Most jet fuel does have an SG of .803, anyway much less than the usual answer of 6.75 lb per US gallon which is 0.81 kg/l, if my conversion is right

GF

17th Nov 2008, 10:23   #9 (permalink)

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Stockholm Sweden
Age: 67
Posts: 570
Quote:
 Is there any constant that can be used to find our density with just the temperature available? Jet A1 considered.
I work at ARN. Once upon a time I might have said yes. The density goes up as the OAT goes down. But since the ARN fuel supply was changed to the railway from Gavle the density changes with every load of fuel. We can have 0.801 fuel one day and 0.809 the next. Temp is the same. It depends on which refinery it comes from.
Anyway you call yourself an MD80 driver. One narrow bodies it doesn't make a lot of difference. On a 10000 kg fuel load, the difference between 0.793 (midsummer) and 0.813 (midwinter) is only 200 litres. We don't bother at all on our narrow bodies, we use 0.800 all the time (means I can work it out without a calculator!)

 4th Dec 2008, 16:12 #10 (permalink) Thread Starter   Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Scandinavia Age: 40 Posts: 120 My fellow swede, Thank you for the answer. Different fuel load from different refinery, then you being the fuel supplier can correct for temperature with a constant. Now I can sleep at night Of course, small aircraft as the MD80 = small difference in weight vs volume. But when departing from warm destinations like egypt, the quantity can change after an hour or two at cruise due to this problem... See you! Rookie
4th Dec 2008, 21:01   #11 (permalink)

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Stockholm Sweden
Age: 67
Posts: 570
Quote:
 But when departing from warm destinations like egypt, the quantity can change after an hour or two at cruise due to this problem...
Yes the qty, or volume, will decrease as the fuel cools down, but the weight will stay the same. The indications on the flight deck are in kilos, and there is a densiometer in the fuel tank that adjusts the qty in litres that is measured to give you a constant weight. (or linearly reducing weight as you are flying!)

 5th Dec 2008, 17:53 #12 (permalink) Thread Starter   Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Scandinavia Age: 40 Posts: 120 No, the indicated weight of fuel in this aircraft is calculated by means of resistance (I happen to be type rated). You see, the amount of fuel loaded in egypt will be correct on ground. Once airborne, temp decreases and volume will be slightly less due to the problem with MD80's resistance type fuel qty system. It measures the quantity and assumes a temp from the resistance. The allowed error is 270kgs with full tanks and a density of 0.803. Lower density = my margins shrink! Do you see the point? So, if I could calculate the specific gravity with only a constant and fuel temp, I could disregard any changes in fuel temp/density at cruise.
5th Dec 2008, 20:59   #13 (permalink)

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Stockholm Sweden
Age: 67
Posts: 570
Look at this
be careful with your jet fuel

Also
Quote:
 the indicated weight of fuel in this aircraft is calculated by means of resistance
Are you sure, I have a problem deciding how this works. All older aircraft I can remember have capacitive gauges.

 6th Dec 2008, 01:10 #14 (permalink) Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Sale, Australia Age: 73 Posts: 3,832 The specifications for Jet A seems to call for a SG between .775 and .84 at 15°C. See http://www.exxonmobil.com/AviationGl...ations2005.pdf
 8th Dec 2008, 07:18 #15 (permalink) Prof. Airport Engineer   Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Australia (mostly) Posts: 726 Viscosity-temperature properties of Jet Fuels; PM me for a copy of the paper.
8th Dec 2008, 11:15   #16 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East Andalucia
Age: 67
Posts: 696
Quote:
 Are you sure, I have a problem deciding how this works. All older aircraft I can remember have capacitive gauges.
Certainly had float operated resistance gauges, or at least that's what I told drivers !
"Right fuel indicator sticks at 4550"
"Ice on the float guv be alright when it melts"

I would the fix it of course after they had gone

 30th Jan 2011, 13:42 #17 (permalink) Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Great Britain Posts: 3 Fuelers density vs temp chart I've noticed the questions and answers concerning aviation fuel density and weight. I've got a bit of a science background (I suppose many of us do) and understand about specific gravity and weight vs volume at differing temps. (I've searched the internet, in obviously the wrong places) Can anyone offer a website or even a place to write off to, where I could get a copy of whatever chart that into plane fuelers use to give the density for their fuel when delivered at the a/c? There must be charts for weigh vs temp for each grade of fuel, Jet A, A1 and the mil grades JP5 and 8 that are specific to that fuel with it's additives. I don't need any slick answers or nifty science I would just like to know where I could get such graphs/charts. We tend to use more fuel than a 747 so it becomes important and it would be nice to be able to double check what the fueler tells us. Anybody? Many thanks...
 30th Jan 2011, 18:18 #18 (permalink) Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Stockholm Sweden Age: 67 Posts: 570 No can't be done. Jet A1 has different density from different refineries. The only way to check the delivery SG is to measure it. All the dispensers here have bottles and a little stick that floats in the fuel. The refuellers check the density on request. It is not a constant with temp, but is higher in the winter on average, than in the summer. It will be the same for a few days, and then jump when they change the delivery tank.
 30th Jan 2011, 18:44 #19 (permalink) Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Great Britain Posts: 3 That sounds reasonable to me. That's why I always see a small range in SG's for the same temp (ie std day). I'll stop looking and accept what the fueler shows us on the day, thanks Swedish!
 31st Jan 2011, 13:19 #20 (permalink) Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Durham Posts: 483 JP8 Greeting...have the actually finalised the JP8 formula? Is it in regular use for civil aircraft? Regards Last edited by DERG; 20th Feb 2011 at 09:20. Reason: spellings