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Old 11th Jun 2008, 07:56   #1 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Will you shut down?

At some busy airports, we might be instructed to hold at the holding point of a runway for more than 30mins! (it happened to me in deed.) will you shut down engine(s) there then start again just before new slot time? without any groud stuff.

thanks!
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Old 11th Jun 2008, 08:04   #2 (permalink)
 
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That depends on your SOP!
Mine says yes, in the case of remote holding..
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Old 11th Jun 2008, 08:05   #3 (permalink)
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
 
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BA have been doing it for years, shutting down both on a 737 for example. No groundcrew required for restart.
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Old 11th Jun 2008, 08:11   #4 (permalink)

 
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Depends. If you're holding at an intersection and you'll be first out, you could. If you're in the congo line and 40th in sequence, then you still need to taxi. We shut down two engines and keep two running if it's a long delay, but we try hard to delay starting until we have the best opportunity to make a run for it, either with a slot time, or a lull in the departures.
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Old 11th Jun 2008, 08:14   #5 (permalink)
 
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What other airlines do this???
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Old 11th Jun 2008, 09:01   #6 (permalink)
 
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With BOAC

But was that not for ATC slots? BA franchise carrier at the time and yes, push and hold for a remote stand to prove the airline ready on time. After X mins if slot still the same, crew to consider APU start and engine shut down. That was in the 90's with gas at bargain basement prices to today. Downside, stuck and oh so tech delay if one should not fire up or APU fail..............Still that was just a tug driver towing it back with ATC not happy.

So much more at stake now with the price of gas, but shut down on the active? From an Ops guys humble pov errrrrrrrrrrrrrm maybe not..........

Bored
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Old 11th Jun 2008, 10:32   #7 (permalink)
 
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Yes I would shut one down.

We push to remote hold for slots and keep the engines shut down and then start them without groundcrew supervision so I don't see the big drama myself. If I was going to shutdown 2 and be immobile then I would chat to ATC first just to make sure it didn't cause them any hassle.

A while back we were number 3 in a queue to get airborne when a landing aircraft burst a tyre and closed the runway for 1/2 hour or so. We first shut down one then with ATC oermission shut down the second. Everyone else had to return to stand. ATC gave us 5 mins warning of our departure as we had asked them to and we got away with minimum delay and without the need to fight for a bowser back on stand.
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Old 11th Jun 2008, 11:13   #8 (permalink)
 
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Shut both down at JFK the other night. ATC had stopped all departures due to staff shortages (his words). There were about 30 of us in the queue. Most had shut down. From pushback to departure was over two hours.
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Old 11th Jun 2008, 11:21   #9 (permalink)
 
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Same at JFK. B767 flying to Europe; CAT 3 airfield, TAF CAVOK, minimum fuel. Contingency was >30mins + long diversion. Number 45 in taxi queue. You work it out. 90 mins taxi was more than 1000kgs = 15mins flying. Shut one down for SE taxi. If not then we would have departed less than plog even after changing to closer diversion.

Anyone shut down an engine to extend holding time? e.g island holding or unexpected delay. FF with one off is less than all running.
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Old 11th Jun 2008, 11:56   #10 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Anyone shut down an engine to extend holding time? e.g island holding or unexpected delay. FF with one off is less than all running
IF you refer to shut one down while airbourne, I expect the relevant regulatory authority would have a say, and the answer might not be to your liking.
Years ago, DanAir requested enroute shutdown of one on the Comet 4, to save fuel, and the ARB (as it was, then, now CAA) replied with a definite NO.
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Old 11th Jun 2008, 15:49   #11 (permalink)
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Standard practice (airborne) in my military experience, but a bit frightening for pussy cats like 411A
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Old 11th Jun 2008, 16:19   #12 (permalink)
 
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First it is not in my SOP. but also SOP doesn't say "can't". so i heard some of my colleagues are doing this now.
there are two problem should be concerned i guess. first without groudcrew we will not be advised in case of a engine pipe fire; second ,in winter if we just start a coud engine then imediately go for take off power, will that be easy to cause engine failure?......discuss......
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Old 11th Jun 2008, 16:40   #13 (permalink)
 
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I know this is a completely uneducated question from someone who only flies airlines as a pax, but I've always wondered why ATC clears folks to taxi if the know they can't accommodate a timely takeoff (the example of the closed runway due to a burst tire excepted, of course)?

As a customer, I'd much rather wait at the gate knowing that when you get a pushback it'll be a real go than sit out on a taxiway for several hours.
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Old 11th Jun 2008, 16:53   #14 (permalink)
 
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Did shut down one on several occasion but company SOPs are silent on this. For some it seems to be a no no as there are no ground crew or fire tender around for the restart.....what are your regulations wrt that?
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Old 11th Jun 2008, 17:08   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8shandini
but I've always wondered why ATC clears folks to taxi if the know they can't accommodate a timely takeoff
- its because the airline request it, to make their on-time departures look better rather than sit at the gate and show 'a delay'.
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Old 11th Jun 2008, 18:22   #16 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
- its because the airline request it, to make their on-time departures look better rather than sit at the gate and show 'a delay'
I kind of figured that was the case. But I'm sure it's only a matter of time before someone loses it and decides to pop an exit hatch and escape his "captors." Once I spent 3 hours on the ground at DFW with no A/C and I can tell you that it sure crossed my mind. Luckily I was still sane enough to think of what a royal mess that would have caused and how long I would probably have spent in jail.
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Old 11th Jun 2008, 18:35   #17 (permalink)
 
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why ATC clears folks to taxi if the know they can't accommodate a timely takeoff (the example of the closed runway due to a burst tire excepted, of course)?


Does have to do with use of the gate/stand by incoming planes?

Rwy in Sight
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Old 11th Jun 2008, 22:09   #18 (permalink)
 
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Just visit JFK, happends every night
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Old 11th Jun 2008, 23:08   #19 (permalink)
 
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We taxi on one engine outbound if taxying expected 20 mins or more, and shut-down one engine inbound after 3 min cooling time after leaving rwy. Shut-down one (or both engines if we can stay put) with any extended ground-delay (waiting for a gate etc).
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Old 11th Jun 2008, 23:14   #20 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
I know this is a completely uneducated question from someone who only flies airlines as a pax, but I've always wondered why ATC clears folks to taxi if the know they can't accommodate a timely takeoff
Not to mention another plane may need the gate, or the ground crew need to attend other aircraft. Also at very busy airports such as JFK have a restriction on departures per hour, meaning that you could possibly lose your takeoff slot.
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