PPRuNe Forums


Tech Log The very best in practical technical discussion on the web

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 18th Nov 2006, 11:40   #1 (permalink)
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: France/Africa
Posts: 35
Question Airbus technology defects

This story takes place in France, concerning Airbus technology.

A former Air France 747 pilot has been reduced to silence because he knows too much about Airbuses defects, about the reasons of the crashes and about the lies around all this, to hide the truth.


Read here (in english) : http://jacno.com/za-an-inmo.htm

If it takes too long, just read this short letter : http://jacno.com/za-an-an39.htm

It seems unbelievable, but is true. This guy is a real victim of the “Reason of State”.

In France, everything relating to Airbus is locked : justice, media… everything which has something to see with state interest. When orders come from the very top! Is it necessary to recall the Mitterrand’s hidden daughter, where silence was the rule for all media, also hiding means to reduce to silence those who would not accept to say nothing about this young lady?

Could we talk about this incredible story on local forums, to pilot associations and trade-unions, and, if necessary, to civil aviation administrations and journalists?
the shrimp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Nov 2006, 19:09   #2 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Dublin
Posts: 105
They did call the A320 the "John Wayne Airplane" after that Paris Air Show disaster in '88 I think.
Why?

It climbs mountains, knocks down trees & kills Indians!
Flying Mech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Nov 2006, 19:25   #3 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: North of London
Posts: 371
Anybody who does not think the French are experts at covering up for their own, needs to have a close look at the Alfred Dreyfus incident.It is staggering that this could be allowed to happenand even more so that the European courts won't help.
Colonel Klink is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Nov 2006, 19:55   #4 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Dre's mum's house
Posts: 1,432
If you fail to understand the complexities of the systems declaring them unsafe is a great cop out!!!
The Real Slim Shady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Nov 2006, 20:10   #5 (permalink)

Dog Tired
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 1,560
Do you people think you might need good lawyers soon?
fantom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th Nov 2006, 00:21   #6 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sale, Australia
Age: 73
Posts: 3,832
Quote from Hansard,

"and that is why you employ lawyers: because lawyers are all about the law and not the truth"
Brian Abraham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th Nov 2006, 00:35   #7 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 564
if something is not understood its use can be unsafe
jondc9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th Nov 2006, 01:06   #8 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: On the dark side of the moon
Posts: 835
While I am no psychiatrist, he certainly seems to have a serious case of obsession. What facts about the case were hidden? He fails to inform the reader what they are. Could it be because there aren't any? In fact, a French court recently threw out a case against several officials which made similar accusations.

The investigation clearly states that an error was made by the crew in selecting a vertical speed of 3300 f.p.m. instead of a flight path angle of 3.3 degrees. This, combined with a lack of an installed GPWS, led to the collision with the high terrain on the approach. If any officials needed to answer for their actions, it was the Air Inter management who elected to buy A320s without a GPWS system because "GPWS systems give false warnings". If I were an airline manager, I'd much rather have a crew respond to a false warning than to scatter an aircraft on a mountain top.
J.O. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th Nov 2006, 01:11   #9 (permalink)
Wunderbra
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Bedford, UK
Age: 37
Posts: 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Abraham View Post
Quote from Hansard,
"and that is why you employ lawyers: because lawyers are all about the law and not the truth"
By definition, being called Lawyers rather than Truthyers!

As for the Airbus cover up story, it would hardly be the first time that a western government has covered up something of import. It's interesting that this has not been reported on (to my knowledge) in the British press. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that, but I've never seen any of the information regarding these accidents over here.
matt_hooks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th Nov 2006, 04:11   #10 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Down south, USA.
Posts: 1,588
Lightbulb

This does not suggest that there were no problems with the Boeing 737-2/3 rudder actuators.
So how about with older widebody Airbus types?

We are at a JFK hotel tonight. Not very far from here soon after 9/11, an A-300 crashed. It was very easy to blame the flying pilot, especially buried six feet under the cold ground, due to some comments made by just one pilot he had flown with.
No pilot goes "ape", or "bananas" and pushes wildly on the rudder pedals-maybe the rudder, at that moment, already suffered from erratic oscillations? During my career, I never heard about any pilot, none whatsoever, using rudders in that manner. It is unheard of-but that comment certainly let the NTSB "off the hook".

Imagine the resulting legal 'Katrina' storm (much of it from the FAA....), if the NTSB had used documents from foreign "translated" regulatory agencies to create doubt in the reliability of a large aircraft-after years of operating with US carriers, i.e. American and Fedex! That same plane might have suffered, before the accident flight, structural damage during either turbulence or a hard landing.

Were there not strange anomolies (uncommanded control inputs to other A-300s), in aircraft operated by Interflug, Air France and AirTransat? How often is a rudder designed whereby a pilot pushes on the pedal, but after a certain distance of pedal travel, a disproportiate angle is commanded by the rudder actuator? This has been alleged for the A-300/310.
The"airline" Interflug is gone, and would that company and Air France keep records of maintenance inspections after the 'alleged' incidents?
Did Fedex aircraft suffer unexplained rudder problems on any A-310/300s?

Last edited by Ignition Override; 20th Nov 2006 at 06:45.
Ignition Override is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th Nov 2006, 04:32   #11 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Switzerland, Singapore
Posts: 1,302
Well well, some more French bashing...
Some of you even need to use the nearly 100 year old story of Dreyfuss to their aid. Are you guys serious? In the last 6 years alone, Bush and his buddies have covered up enough for a century. Where has the Antrax case gone, btw???

While I agree that French government is not one of the most willing to act transparent, some other "Grand Nations" are certainly not much better. But please be more rational and stick to the point.

Fact is, that where ever you invent new technology, there is a possibility of mistakes. Airbus is a very safe and secure aircraft. There are Boeings and there are Airbus. Both are excellent aircraft.

dani
Dani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th Nov 2006, 06:07   #12 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Down south, USA.
Posts: 1,588
Dani-Our own agency, our friendly FAA, has "allegedly" kept quiet in the past about certain aircraft anomolies. Their dream was to hope it that the aircraft was operated by a foreign airline or military squadron-how would the American public, who flew on these by the thousands, be aware of it?
The aircraft which suffered from aileron 'snatch' in some icing conditions was just one. Look up the political expression "plausible denial". When the reports are locked away in a 'Schublade' and nobody else is aware....dead bodies and fragmented aircraft parts in the frozen ground near Roselawn, Indiana.
Any agency or government can have the motivation to cover something up, not just the French.

Is it possible that it happened with the 'Spatzl', the 'Chips', the 'SPQR', even the Amis? Especially when it is legal and many billions (whether aircraft sales, or staggering Arbeitslosigkeitskosten...) are at stake.

No matter where-it should be exposed, just as plundering of airline pension funds and other...eh...corporate cash "upstreaming", "up" to holding companies, must be exposed .
How about kickbacks from bankruptcy law firms which charge an airline extortionate rates? Look under enough stones in the forest, and some slime will be discovered, especially when a government's executive branch dictates the mentality for government department ministers (Secretaries), and therefore appoints them, whether DOT, FAA....the Tombstone agency. When dead bodies are brought in, the FAA reacts as if they were always unaware of a problem or certification flaw (i.e. icing).

And when the pseudo-government agency which helps support, to a very limited extent, private (even airline!) pensions, and strangely , has the SAME people on the Board which decides whether or not to loan an airline money.
Imagine the possible conflicts of interest. . ! Das kann man sich leicht vor-------.

Last edited by Ignition Override; 19th Nov 2006 at 06:27.
Ignition Override is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th Nov 2006, 07:26   #13 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: btw SAMAR and TOSPA
Posts: 516
Quote:
Interflug is gone, and would that company keep records maintenance inspections after the 'alleged' incidents?
Aircraft belongs to the German Air Force fleet now carrying members of the government. Incident check and any subsequent maintenance was done by LHT, all documentation available.
threemiles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th Nov 2006, 08:25   #14 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fairly close to the colonial capitol
Age: 49
Posts: 1,566
There is not an innocent member of this club.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignition Override View Post
How often is a rudder designed whereby a pilot pushes on the pedal, but after a certain distance of pedal travel, a disproportiate angle is commanded by the rudder actuator? This has been alleged for the A-300/310.
Interflug is gone, and would that company and Air France keep records maintenance inspections after the 'alleged' incidents?
Did Fedex aircraft suffer UNexplained rudder problems on any A-310/300s?
The unusual rudder actuation of the A300 series is not alleged, IO. It is a demonstrated fact. And to be fair, the 737 Classic series rudder incidents indicated something was clearly wrong with the PCH units. There is more to both stories than is generally known.

Probably hasn't been a lawsuit involving a product defect in recent times where some form of legal subterfuge is not being skillfully applied to free the manufacturer from liability. Sad Status Quo.


Now, allow us move on to the newest generation of aircraft:

The good news:
A physical defect in a valve or other device can 99% of the time be expertly reproduced or reasonably proven forensically to exist - no contest here.

The not so good news:
A software bug can remain well-hidden due to the numerous lines of often complex code that is best understood only by the original programmers. Then there is the programmer's intended interaction with the not-so-finite real world which becomes practically an ethereal matter. The resulting trail from said defect may only be visible to a select few, if there is any trail left at all.

The more we digitise, the more need there is to audit the process and results - especially considering the current state of corporate honesty.

This business of not owning up to one's mistakes (both personal and corporate) is becoming very tiresome.

Honesty and integrity should always trump liability, but that is now but an idealist's dream.

The trust-factor, however, remains huge.

Last edited by vapilot2004; 19th Nov 2006 at 08:51. Reason: grammar
vapilot2004 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Nov 2006, 01:38   #15 (permalink)
56P
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 128
Is it possible to obtain a copy in English of the book identified in the first posting above?
56P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Nov 2006, 04:04   #16 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: 38N
Posts: 356
Quote:
The not so good news:
A software bug can remain well-hidden due to the numerous lines of often complex code that is best understood only by the original programmers. Then there is the programmer's intended interaction with the not-so-finite real world which becomes practically an ethereal matter. The resulting trail from said defect may only be visible to a select few, if there is any trail left at all.
True, indeed. Software generally does not fail-soft. The heavy dependence on software that is 'undocumented' and inaccessible to all but a select-few company insiders means no accountability, no transparency, and no independent verification of the critical control processes and underlying assumptions that operate most functions in modern aircraft.

With engines, airframe, and avionics coming from several sources, the potential for hidden flaws in integral control software compounds with each design change and each 'model' variation thereon.

Imagine further how the design integrity of these aircraft may degrade over decades of 'minor' control and subsystem repairs intended to deal with specific operational problems encountered along the way, many of them done on the cheap without the top-to-bottom integrated-systems evaluations that look at the bigger picture of overall vehicle reliablility in light of each and every modification.

The various civil authorities need to develop enough backbone to compel full disclosure ( confidential, where necessary ) for ongoing technical evaluation of algorithms, principles, and all other operational data about the software controlling ALL airbourne controls, systems, and subsystems used in civil aviation. Only when this is done will the true facts be available for inquiry and independent evaluation when incidents arise.

Last edited by arcniz; 20th Nov 2006 at 05:05. Reason: correct word error
arcniz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Nov 2006, 04:05   #17 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,601
Rudder actions

Indeed, rudders, and their sometimes strange actions, notwithstanding pilot inputs.

Now, with American Airlines, their poorly thought out advanced maneuvering program, and the possibility of a rogue First Officer using the rudder in an inappropriate manner...this is bad enough.

But, perhaps not nearly as bad as Boeing, as those with very long memories will recall, again with American Airlines, and one of their B707's suffering a rudder hardover just after takeoff in the very early 1960's, from IDL (now (JFK).
A swan dive straight into Flushing Bay.
Did Boeing cover this up, with the help of the FAA?

You be the judge, but the 707 was a known quantity with regard to rudder hardovers...for quite a long time.
And, the result was, shall we say, not good.

That large rudder power guarded switch, painted red with white stripes was there for a reason, and was certainly used more than one time, you can be sure.
411A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Nov 2006, 07:05   #18 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Down south, USA.
Posts: 1,588
Arrow

vaPilot2004: It is always my intention to avoid any hint of libel, and also for our generous supervisors at PPRuNe Towers.
To be quite frank, my aviation reading on days off mostly includes PPRuNe, a little "Aviation Week & ST", "Flying" and the other Internet, i.e. 'MD-11' anomolies.

By the way, not too many years ago, "Aviation Week" stated that original records from TWA maintenance revealed that BEFORE the 727 flown by Hoot Gibson rolled into a dive over Michigan, there had been uncommanded LE slat problems...again, from dates before that famous incident.
Who had hidden those documents so many years?
I've flown nothing larger that the 757 and have no desire to. The smaller planes are more fun, serving large and many smaller airports.

I said nothing about MD-11 certification issues and
'possible' landing gear fatigue (PSP?). Nothing.
Ignition Override is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Nov 2006, 11:18   #19 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcniz View Post
True, indeed. Software generally does not fail-soft. The heavy dependence on software that is 'undocumented' and inaccessible to all but a select-few company insiders means no accountability, no transparency, and no independent verification of the critical control processes and underlying assumptions that operate most functions in modern aircraft.
This comment betrays a lack of understanding of safety critical software systems design. I wouldn't expect you to have an understanding of same unless, like myself, you had spent several years studying the topic. If you have not done so then perhaps you could avoid making ill informed sweeping statements about my profession.
Software systems can be and are designed to fail in a deterministic state and furthermore the hardware systems on which they run are designed likewise. The degree of redundancy in a FBW flight control system is typically an order of magnitude greater than for a hydromechanical system.
Safety critical systems are never written in an "undocumented and inaccessible" way. Large projects often have dozens or hundreds of contributors all working within a far more controlled process than that used for business applications. Many systems are subject to external scrutiny and certification. Where redundancy is required it is not unusual to use two different teams (sometimes different companies) to develop the exact same application - a development approach originally pioneered by NASA.
I would be more concerned by many of the mechanical and electrical systems than I am about the software. Pilots tend to blame every glitch "on the computers" when in reality the vast majority of issues are caused by transducer failures or even a simple misunderstanding of how to use the system. Such problems can equally affect hydromechanical aircraft. As far as I'm aware there has never been a FBW failure in a commercial aircraft that has resulted in loss of critical control systems. The number of tech problems due to software are totally eclipsed by mechanical and electrical problems.
FBW software systems are known to have saved aircraft, but are yet to be proven causal in any production hull loss. That makes our record infinitely better than almost every other aircraft system.
Just imho.
egsc_h17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Nov 2006, 13:39   #20 (permalink)

Dog Tired
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 1,560
Well said!
Wow, some-one who actually knows what they are talking about.
Fifteen happy Airbus years behind me and I'm not dead yet. Isn't that amazing?
fantom is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 04:40.


© 1996-2012 The Professional Pilots Rumour Network

SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1