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Old 29th Jul 2006, 03:50   #1 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Victoria BC Canada
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KJFK VOR or GPS Rwy 13L / R ( Canarsie Approach )

At the Missed Approach Point ( CRI 041R 2.6 DME ), are all 3 sets of Lead-in Lights AND Rwy 13L or 13R required to be acquired visually to continue the approach, or can you continue to the first set of LDIN only if in view, then continue to the second set of LDIN if in view, and then to the third set of LDIN if in view ?

From the MAP, it's a 90 degree turn to either runway. I understand that the runway edge lighting is very directional, that is, you can't see the runway until within about 30 degrees of the runway.

Any tips out there for successfully flying this approach ?
Do you level off at the MAP, or continue in a very shallow descent ?
Philip Mew is offline  
Old 29th Jul 2006, 10:38   #2 (permalink)
 
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I know there are a few BA management pilots who can give you lots of good advice on the Canarsie
flt_lt_w_mitty is offline  
Old 29th Jul 2006, 12:30   #3 (permalink)
 
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The runway is very hard to see before you start the turn. It looks like a road in a built up area and during the few times I have flown the approach I have never felt comfortable. I can't comment on the MAP as It's a while since I last flew it.

The first time I saw it, the Captain took control for the approach even though it was my sector - he told me that I should see one done proprly before trying one myself. Well, I certainly learned a lot! The aircraft was at 45 degrees AoB with every GPWS warning in the system going off as we lined up with the runway. When I got a chance to fly it for myself the first time, I left it in LNAV and let the autopilot fly it. No dramas whatsoever. This was in a Boeing - I should think an Airbus managed approach would do it even better.

What a rubbish approach. On classic case of the NIMBYs erroding flight safety to an unacceptable degree.
Dan Winterland is offline  
Old 29th Jul 2006, 12:44   #4 (permalink)
 
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Location: Runcorn,Cheshire,England
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The VOR 13L , AKA Carnarsie, is fine so long as the wind isn't a strong southerly (and it usually is). You usually get vectored towards ASALT @3000' and the trick is not to let NY ATC con you into leeping the speed up. Get it all hanging out and slow down early so you can leave CRI pretty well configured. The MAP is DHYML and from there you can see the runway ok(ish).
The lights aren't the best but there are other features...twin stacks, aquaduct etc...
No need for any silly AOB just a gentle turn and caution the descent rate as you will nedd to reduce from DHYML for 13l to approx 400fpm.

It's a fun approach IMHO but onlu if the weather is ok. If you don't want to accept 13L due wind then tell ATC...they will only inform the port authority to change runway if they get 3 requests!!
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Old 29th Jul 2006, 15:59   #5 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
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On our A319s, the GPS approach is not in the database. Believe you me, I would utilize the managed approach if it was available.
So : In VMC, can you see 13L from DMYHL ? I recall that it's difficult to see
this runway against all the bright lights on the ground, and the directional nature if the runway edge lighting..
And from DMYHL, do you you have to see all 3 sets of LDIN AND the runway,
or can you proceed from the first set of LDIN to the second set and then onto the third set, then the runway ?
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Old 30th Jul 2006, 02:50   #6 (permalink)
 
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3Greens said it well.
Its kinda unnerving the first or second time, but its actually fun after that.
I don't know what type of FMS stuff you have, but if you can set up the "chinese glideslope" on a non-precision approach, thats a big help on your final decent as you make the turn. Don't let them make you "keep the speed up". Slow is good at this point.
Willit Run is offline  
Old 30th Jul 2006, 06:17   #7 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
At the Missed Approach Point ( CRI 041R 2.6 DME ), are all 3 sets of Lead-in Lights AND Rwy 13L or 13R required to be acquired visually to continue the approach, or can you continue to the first set of LDIN only if in view, then continue to the second set of LDIN if in view, and then to the third set of LDIN if in view ?
I’ve flown this approach more times than I can remember. That said, I need to qualify my following remarks with, I don't have the charts with me, and haven't flown that approach for the past few years.

However, when you say, "All 3 Lead-In-lights", if you are talking about the 3 separate "Sets of lines of lights" then, No, you only need one set at a time.

Any tips? Some pilots I know used to put waypoints in the FMS that related to the various visual points during that approach (Race Track, etc). Then, display those waypoints on the ND for orientation purposes.

Were those waypoints helpful? Since the final few minutes of this approach is basically flown in a semi-circular visual procedure, requiring a somewhat constant right turn, it did seem to be helpful when visibility was at or near minimums.

Important to note, that when JFK is using this approach, it is typically when visibility is poor, as the use of the ILS approaches (Missed Approach Paths) will infringe upon operations at LGA and the other New York Airports. So typically, you can expect to do this approach in minimal visibility conditions.

Like I’ve said so many times, do what your companies SOP allows you to do, and all should be fine.

Cheers /cj

Last edited by captain_jeeves; 30th Jul 2006 at 09:05.
captain_jeeves is offline  
Old 30th Jul 2006, 07:58   #8 (permalink)
 
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Kind of like the old Hong Kong stonecutter, but without the mountains....

And, yes, I have seen some "spectacular approaches" at JFK.....

http://www.aviationpics.de/appr/app.htm

They will hang on to this approach until folks start missing or someone says NO.....for the afore mentioned reasons. LGA and EWR will have to change alignment if JFK does.....creates quite a jam.

I think most "stabilized approach" criteria are written with this approach in mind - carefully worded to allow for the manuevering required. And as previously mentioned, a strong southerly creates most of the issues with safely and succesfully completing this approach.
Shore Guy is offline  
Old 31st Jul 2006, 16:01   #9 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
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watch out for my house guys and gals the lead in light clusters 13L sit on an autobody shop 3 block away from me...I've seen lots of steep banks looks at least 30 from my ground-bases perspective
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Old 31st Jul 2006, 16:53   #10 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Flown VOR 13L hundreds of times. Great approach in visual conditions. Typical breezes out of the SE in the summer and it's the primary setup for JFK ops during the summer. Flying it in IMC conditions is actually fairly rare. Almost went around once (12 yrs based out of JFK) so it's not the monster folks make it out to be.

Switching runway's at LGA, EWR and JFK can impact operations at the other airports so ATC tries to stick with whatever works best for *all* airports traffic flow.

VFR conditions - ASALT @ 250 kts/3000' = CRI at roughly 210 kts/1500'. Idle with very slight descent rate 100-200' FPM while deaccelerating will get you to the 1000' VDP with final flaps set. That's for VFR when ATC wants your best speed.

If it's VFR don't *uck up the pattern and reach CRI at Vref with full flaps. Guys that beat you to death with "it's an instrument approach, FAF at Vref and full flaps" are a nightmare. It's VFR with VOR guidance to a VISUAL the vast majority of the time.

If it's IFR you want to be configured by CRI. The MAP is only 2.6 miles and 700' below the CRI fix. It comes up quickly and you're trying to pick up lights that are a long way from the runway.

It can be uncomfortable if you havn't flown it before in poor vis. And the runway does tend to blend into the surrounding background making it tough to see, especially on hazy days.

The approach plate depicts the ground path - fairly straight to start of second lights then continous turn(15 degrees of bank? - IDK) to lineup. VASI on the right side is for glide slope just prior to and during the turn. Left VASI is for after lineup.

The Belt Parkway (highway) is slightly left of the lead-in lights. From CRI to on the 041 radial it's a fairly straight segment. You should be aimed at the south side of the horse track at your 11:30 position and towards the second set of lead-in lights. From the second set of lights it's a fairly constant bank that often requires an increase in bank angle at lineup to correct for typical southerly overshooting wind.

You only need one set of lights in sight to continue.

VFR - gradual descent from CRI (100-200' FPM)

IFR - You're 300' below typical descent path at the MAP so you need to fly level for about a mile to achieve typical descent path.

Taxiing out to depart on 13R watch different techniques that guys use. IMO it's just a long curving final to reach the 1000'/3.3 mile fix in landing configuration. Some folks feel the need to cross CRI in landing configuration on VFR days. 300' below typical g/s path, fully configured, 6 miles from touchdown. Then they dive to 800', and pour the power to it to get around the corner(1+ miles level at 800' fully configured), then transition to a normal descent path. Lots of work, lots of effort, lots of noise. Yeah, it's a monster if you make it one...

And then other guys right ahead of, or behind, that flight make it look very, very, very simple. Choose accordingly.
misd-agin is offline  
Old 31st Jul 2006, 17:51   #11 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
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I always loved flying the Canarsie VOR approach and I have always thanked the citizens of Ozone Park for making it necessary.

It wasn't too good from the fuel burn point of view if you were coming off the Atlantic for it could add 4T to the burn as compared to a straight-in on 22L.

Canarsie VOR was also the first one in the world that I came across where a knowledge of the Morse code was irrelevant. It used say "This is the Canarsie VOR" - "This is the Canarsie VOR".

Why didn't this simple idea catch on?

Have any of you out there been asked to side-step to 13R halfway round? It only happened to me once.
JW411 is offline  
Old 1st Aug 2006, 02:28   #12 (permalink)
 
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Yea, I got the side step the first time i did it! 747 Classic too. Cloudy, snowing, snow covered ground, poor vis. Needless to say, I was a wee bit nervous, but to get the damn sidestep, Sure glad cappy had seen all this before.
Now, ain't no thang!
Willit Run is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2006, 13:33   #13 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Paris, France
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approach into JFK...

Hello all,

Flying into JFK quite regularly, but not on a weekly basis, I am often shocked at the way things go while approaching this airport...

Oftentimes, we find ourselves with last minute changes to runways and procedures, and not standard ILS - VOR approaches that require a minimum of prep for descend path control...

The worst - I think - is the nonchalence with which everyone seems to accept the famed "visual" approach to 31 R, at night, with no G/S, no papi (or any visual descend path helper), no runway center lights, no touchdown zone lights and a displaced threshold ! A lot of runways in AFRICA are well better equipped ! And after a 7 hour flight in the dead of night, hardly a good setting for safe landings...

I guess with modern airplanes, all this seems superfluous, but for those of us flying older aircraft with "conventional" instruments, I don't think it's the safest !

happy landings
crjo is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2006, 14:09   #14 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North Pole
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You should try it in a glass cockpit with all the gizmos! By the time you have finished loading it all in the FMS it is often easier to accept a visual approach!! Mind you, that does let the controller off the hook!!! He no longer has to keep you clear of other aircraft and can go back to screwing up the next 10 aircraft he has on the frequency!! And its all in the name of NOISE ABATEMENT!!!!!
newt is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2006, 14:59   #15 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crjo
Hello all,

Flying into JFK quite regularly, but not on a weekly basis, I am often shocked at the way things go while approaching this airport...

Oftentimes, we find ourselves with last minute changes to runways and procedures, and not standard ILS - VOR approaches that require a minimum of prep for descend path control...

The worst - I think - is the nonchalence with which everyone seems to accept the famed "visual" approach to 31 R, at night, with no G/S, no papi (or any visual descend path helper), no runway center lights, no touchdown zone lights and a displaced threshold ! A lot of runways in AFRICA are well better equipped ! And after a 7 hour flight in the dead of night, hardly a good setting for safe landings...

I guess with modern airplanes, all this seems superfluous, but for those of us flying older aircraft with "conventional" instruments, I don't think it's the safest !

happy landings
Is the glide slope for 31R out of service?
misd-agin is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2006, 15:13   #16 (permalink)
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
 
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I reckon the '7 hour flight' takes it out of crjo more than we know! I suspect he refers to 13R but in any case I'm joing this up with that thread.

Apologies if I am wrong!
BOAC is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2006, 15:24   #17 (permalink)
 
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Having lived under the approach path for 13L for 20+ years I can recount some pretty interesting sights.
I have flown it a couple of times and it is not nearly as interesting as when I see some guys do it wrong.

When it is VFR everyone gets it pretty much spot on.....BUT! when its down to MINS and even lower I can really see some differences.

The guys who are always waaay to low
1.BWIA(even on VFR days theyre low, are their charts up to date?)
2.China Eastern Cargo ( I dont even want to talk about what they have done)
3.Alitalia (well one time me and my family ducked, im not kiddin)
I jump seated on AZ610 many years ago and on that occasion we almost landed on the taxiway, i couldnt blame them cause i couldnt see the rwy either
4.Royal air Maroc (just freaken low man)

The guys who always play it safe and honest
1.British airways (they go around if even 1 fluffy cloud is below MDA)
2.Cargolux( the few times they do come in they get shafted by the wxr


ofcourse what i wrote above is in no way a hard and fast rule concerning any of the airlines. What I could have seen was mearly coincedence but boy oh boy me and my dad can tell what airline is inbound just by much our walls shake.

(preparing for incoming)
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Old 5th Aug 2006, 15:23   #18 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Winterland
The runway is very hard to see before you start the turn. It looks like a road in a built up area and during the few times I have flown the approach I have never felt comfortable. I can't comment on the MAP as It's a while since I last flew it.

The first time I saw it, the Captain took control for the approach even though it was my sector - he told me that I should see one done proprly before trying one myself. Well, I certainly learned a lot! The aircraft was at 45 degrees AoB with every GPWS warning in the system going off as we lined up with the runway. When I got a chance to fly it for myself the first time, I left it in LNAV and let the autopilot fly it. No dramas whatsoever. This was in a Boeing - I should think an Airbus managed approach would do it even better.

What a rubbish approach. On classic case of the NIMBYs erroding flight safety to an unacceptable degree.
.
Dear Dan

Why did your captain let you fly that sector in the first place as it was evident that he would have taken control???
Strange world....

Best regards
giorgino is offline  
Old 5th Aug 2006, 16:06   #19 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BOAC
I reckon the '7 hour flight' takes it out of crjo more than we know! I suspect he refers to 13R but in any case I'm joing this up with that thread.

Apologies if I am wrong!
No I think he does mean 31R and its as bad as he says. Talk about flying into a black hole!
Carnage Matey! is offline  
Old 5th Aug 2006, 16:13   #20 (permalink)
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In that case, as I said, my apologies, but is that not a classic case for an ILS approach, or is it, as 'misd' asks, out of service?
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