KJFK VOR or GPS Rwy 13L / R ( Canarsie Approach )

[mustangsally]

Simple points for the Canarsie

For 13R MAP at 930 ft, 3 degree glide slope 3.1 NM to the rwy

For 13L MAP at 1200 ft, 3 degree glide slope 4.1 NM to the rwy

I've used this as targets for years and it works, and helps break the code for new guys. Dropping down to the MDA of 800 feet compounds the problem. It is a rare occurance that this approach is assigned with less than 1200 and better than 3 miles.

And as mentioned earlier the wind is usually off the water. This creats the right quartering tail wind until turning final for either runway.

Use and enjoy!

[misd-agin]

Originally Posted by mustangsally

For 13R MAP at 930 ft, 3 degree glide slope 3.1 NM to the rwy

For 13L MAP at 1200 ft, 3 degree glide slope 4.1 NM to the rwy

I've used this as targets for years and it works, and helps break the code for new guys. Dropping down to the MDA of 800 feet compounds the problem. It is a rare occurance that this approach is assigned with less than 1200 and better than 3 miles.

Agree 100%. Going down to 800' when you already have the leadin lights insight, especially on VFR or CAFB days, makes an enjoyable approach a highwork load approach.

And then they bitch and bitch about the approach.

Me thinks it's the carpenter, not the tools....

[crjo]

Hello all,

Dear BOAC, I confirm I'm talking about 31R... Almost every time I flew into JFK and that runway was active, the glide did not work.
Of course, with a working ILS, there is no problem.
What I was appalled at was the ease with which atc clears aircrafts (and the ease with which they accept it!) on a visual approach to a runway :
1/At night,
2/with no glideslope,
3/NO visual flight path indicator,
4/NO Touchdown Zone lights,
5/NO Runway center lights
6/ A displaced threshold
And A VOR not centered with anything...

I think Carnage Matey! felt the same thing as he decribed the sensation quite well : FLYING INTO A DARK HOLE !

cheers

[Dan Winterland]

Originally Posted by giorgino

.
Dear Dan

Why did your captain let you fly that sector in the first place as it was evident that he would have taken control???
Strange world....

Best regards

Ten hours esrlier at the plaaning stage, the forcast favoured a different runway.

[rhovsquared]

for the curious http://myairplane.com/databases/appr...0610VG13LR.PDF
I thought airline guys/gals followed Airline SOP for Stabilized Approach Criteria
regardless of published mins and ATC is not the master of the airplane the missed procedure looks entirely reasonable if you can't make it w/o SAC i've never been fool enough to file to JFK and Avoid Class Bravo transitions as much as possible, but it really doesn't look that horrible an approach too me...don't go on about jet controllability/ground speeds or FAR 25, I'm not that naive

rhov

[misd-agin]

Originally Posted by rhovsquared

I thought airline guys/gals followed Airline SOP for Stabilized Approach Criteria
regardless of published mins

500' VFR or 1000' IFR(ILS's). FAF(CRI) on non-precision approachs when IFR.

NOT at CRI (9 miles from runway) at Vref on VFR days (great way to butcher the arrival traffic flow....)

[rhovsquared]

misd-agin:
flying a Vref with an approved additive is done all the time for gust is it not?, yet it still may meet the requirements for stabilized approach criteria. besides w/o adequate visual reference from the MAP you have to take the missed at that point, but you can maintain a stable approach on a 3 deg GS from 1500' or 1000' either using Height to be at for a 3 deg GG 3x distance out [9 miles out 27(00) ft very or for ROD in ft/min=5x ground speed.

I personally witnessed a lot of 'dive and drives' with a STEEP bank and that I find worrisome
you know how much time it takes to bleed of speed from your aircraft.

I know you may not be at MDA when you go missed depending on ATC clearance, also if they ask you to mantain too fast a speed say 'unable'. 13L has vasi and ALSF1 13R has VASIS and in bad wx driving in front that rwy [13L] it's lit up like Christmas when that approach is in use
I am sorry if they keep you high for a long time but looks like there's time to stabilize incrementally between the FAF and MAP ???

g'day
rhov

[rhovsquared]

here's a much more fun and pleasnt looking approach http://myairplane.com/databases/appr...IVER_VIS13.PDF

[misd-agin]

Originally Posted by rhovsquared

here's a much more fun and pleasnt looking approach http://myairplane.com/databases/appr...IVER_VIS13.PDF

Nice view for the pax on the right side of the a/c but that approach is rarely ever used. Flew out of NY for over a decade and landed at LGA on 13 probably twice.

Express Visual approach to LGA 31 is more common, especially once the prevailing winds shift to the NW. Nice view of NYC out the left side for the pax.

[misd-agin]

Originally Posted by rhovsquared

misd-agin:
flying a Vref with an approved additive is done all the time for gust is it not?, yet it still may meet the requirements for stabilized approach criteria. besides w/o adequate visual reference from the MAP you have to take the missed at that point, but you can maintain a stable approach on a 3 deg GS from 1500' or 1000' either using 3x distance out or 5x GS.

I personally witnessed a lot of 'dive and drives' with a STEEP bank and that I find worrisome
you know how much time it takes to bleed of speed from your aircraft.

I know you may not be at MDA when you go missed depending on ATC clearance, also if they ask you to mantain too fast a speed say 'unable'. 13L has vasi and ALSF1 13R has VASIS and in bad wx driving in front that rwy [13L] it's lit up like Christmas when that approach is in use
I am sorry if they keep you high for a long time but looks like there's time to stabilize incrementally between the FAF and MAP ???

g'day
rhov

Always use Vref additives in all the airlines I've flown(5-7 models depending upon how you count them).

Glide slope is 300'/mile(3x not 5x).

If you're fully configured and at low power the sink rate, and pitch attitude, can be fairly impressive without accelerating.

"Steep bank"? Probably stayed within limits but seeing a large jet in a 30 degree at low altitude looks impressive.

Lights are bright on the ground and in the air if you can see them. If you can't get low enough they just light up the clouds around you...

When the weather for VOR 13l/R gets low JFK typically 'swings' the airport because go-arounds, especially during busy periods, can have a large impact on the arrival flow.

[rhovsquared]

sorry misd-agin writing fast I'm meant one method of computaion of ROD for a 3 deg gs is either ROD= 5 * gs or Height required= 3* dist out; from D.P. Davies' HTBJ 3rd ed.
yes usually min= Vref+5Kias

this and an above post edited for technical correctness

[rhovsquared]

also misd-agin i know the bank limit is ususally 25 deg, and that lets just say its not United or BA or A'A making these banks which look like there at the stall protection limits

[misd-agin]

Originally Posted by rhovsquared

also misd-agin i know the bank limit is ususally 25 deg, and that lets just say its not United or BA or A'A making these banks which look like there at the stall protection limits

Autopilot bank limit is often 25 degrees but Ops Specs always been 30 degrees for the carriers I've flown for.

"Stall protection limits"? Without knowing the airspeed, and the G loading being applied, it's impossible to know how close they are to any stall limits. Perfect example is a barrel roll, bank angles all over the place but at one G it's a very gentle manuever and never approaches any stall speeds, as the Boeing 707 pilot showed years ago...

http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photoga...707%20Roll.mpg

[rhovsquared]

misd-agin: just kidding about stall protection limits, I do know of Tex Johnston , however I believe it was also tried on a 727 with not so haapy a result
on A boeing 757 stall protection bank limit is 40 deg
also I Edited the formulae in the above post a bit for fast typing

rhov

[rhovsquared]

Oh I remember enjoying that approach on I flight from RDU (Raleigh Durham, NC) To LGA on an EASTERN AIRLINES 727-200, My first [pax flight alone] at night with CB's[fireworks ] all around and plenty of turbulance , Wing seat! and seat in proximity to a very patient,deadheading captain, and I remenber thinking Ah this is the best flight ever this was about [1988 IIRC]

[PantLoad]

Bank Angle

30 degrees of bank (assuming all else equal) increases stall speed by only about 7%.

PantLoad

[Philip Mew]

Thanks for all the helpful tips, but I'm still looking for an answer to the following :at the MAP, is it mandatory to all 3 sets of LDIN lights AND the
runway in sight to continue ?
In fact. at the MAP, with runway 13L 90 degrees to the CRO 041R, and the very directional nature of the 13L runway lights, is it even possible to see the runway ? In other words, at the MAP, can you proceed visually if only the
first or second LDINs are in view ?

[rhovsquared]

Philip Mew,

When approaching at DYMHL you should be near 'abeam' where 4L and 4R intersect 31L/R,

now, the procedure states explicity

" When VISUAL reference established FLY VISUAL to airport VIA LEAD-IN LIGHTS to rwy 31L or 31R. close adherence to flight track required for noise abatement...

so I would say yes for 31R need two sets for 31 L need visual contact with three LDLN, loss of adequate and proper visual contact requires a missed or a GA.

it's a screwed up visual pattern

rhov

[None]

LDIN lights do not satisfy FARs.

My take on what you need to see at DMYHL, the missed approach point, (from an FAR perspective) is that you need to see the runway environment. This information can be found in FAR 91.175 paragraph (c), and specifically subparagraph (3). LDIN lights are not considered approach lights, so for 13L you would need to see one of the items in subparagraph (c)(3)…approach lights, VASI’s etc. The LDIN lights are for noise abatement procedures.
The following are parts of FAR 91.175.
§ 91.175 Takeoff and landing under IFR.
(c) Operation below DH or MDA. Except as provided in paragraph (l) of this section, where a DH or MDA is applicable, no pilot may operate an aircraft, except a military aircraft of the United States, at any airport below the authorized MDA or continue an approach below the authorized DH unless—
(1) The aircraft is continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers, and for operations conducted under part 121 or part 135 unless that descent rate will allow touchdown to occur within the touchdown zone of the runway of intended landing;
(2) The flight visibility is not less than the visibility prescribed in the standard instrument approach being used; and
(3) Except for a Category II or Category III approach where any necessary visual reference requirements are specified by the Administrator, at least one of the following visual references for the intended runway is distinctly visible and identifiable to the pilot:
(i) The approach light system, except that the pilot may not descend below 100 feet above the touchdown zone elevation using the approach lights as a reference unless the red terminating bars or the red side row bars are also distinctly visible and identifiable.
(ii) The threshold.
(iii) The threshold markings.
(iv) The threshold lights.
(v) The runway end identifier lights.
(vi) The visual approach slope indicator.
(vii) The touchdown zone or touchdown zone markings.
(viii) The touchdown zone lights.
(ix) The runway or runway markings.
(x) The runway lights.
[Notice that LDIN (lead-in) lights are not on this list. This is because they are not considered approach lights.]
(e) Missed approach procedures. Each pilot operating an aircraft, except a military aircraft of the United States, shall immediately execute an appropriate missed approach procedure when either of the following conditions exist:
(1) Whenever operating an aircraft pursuant to paragraph (c) or (l) of this section and the requirements of that paragraph are not met at either of the following times:
(i) When the aircraft is being operated below MDA; or
(ii) Upon arrival at the missed approach point, including a DH where a DH is specified and its use is required, and at any time after that until touchdown.
The following is from the FAA’s Instrument Procedures Handbook:
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/a...a/CH%2005a.pdf
MISSED APPROACH
Many reasons exist for executing a missed approach. The primary reason, of course, is that the required flight visibility prescribed in the IAP being used does not exist or the required visual references for the runway cannot be seen upon arrival at the DA, DH or MAP. In addition, according to Part 91, the aircraft must continuously be in a position from which a
descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers, and for operations conducted under Part 121 or 135, unless that descent rate will allow touchdown to occur within the touchdown zone of the runway of intended
landing. [Figure 5-20] CAT II and III approaches call for different visibility requirements as prescribed by the Administrator.

[rhovsquared]

None, Like Moses You've brought down the LAW!!