The Ugly Duckling!!!
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The Ugly Duckling!!!
Sexy lines make Boeing's new Dreamliner a fuel nightmare
From The Times
July 09, 2004
BOEING is being forced to reconsider the design of its new jet after admitting the distinctive shape would waste fuel.
The aircraft manufacturer originally claimed that the 7E7 Dreamliner, due to make its maiden flight in 2007, would be the most eye-catching aircraft in the skies.
But First Choice, the British holiday company which on Wednesday announced it was ordering six Dreamliners, said it would be pressing Boeing to redesign the plane.
Chris Browne, managing director of First Choice, said passengers did not care what the plane looked like as long as fares were cheap and the interior was comfortable.
She said: "Aerodynamics are far more important than the appearance. While it might be nice to look different, the key issue is to reduce fuel consumption."
As a launch customer, First Choice has the right to negotiate with Boeing over the design of the Dreamliner. The present design has an elongated nose and a tail fin that curves out of the fuselage rather than jutting upwards.
The design looks sleeker than existing snub-nosed aircraft but tests by Boeing's engineers have shown that it causes more drag and therefore increases fuel consumption.
Boeing has already been criticised by environmental groups for sacrificing efficiency for the sake of appearance.
Boeing director of environ ment Jeff Hawk said: "There is a trade-off in the design in which we lose a little in terms of overall efficiency. We wanted people to recognise the plane so they could identify with the brand."
But Boeing head of marketing Randy Baseler said that the manufacturer would be prepared to reconsider the design if airlines raised concerns about wasting fuel.
"Airlines are saying to us: 'We want to bring back the magic of flight.' They want something recognisable but we realise they don't want to pay a big fuel penalty for it. The tail is being studied very carefully and it could have some changes."
Mr Baseler said aspects of the Dreamliner's design, including extensive use of composite materials, would make it 20 per cent more efficient than existing airliners.
The Dreamliner will have between 200 and 300 seats
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From The Times
July 09, 2004
BOEING is being forced to reconsider the design of its new jet after admitting the distinctive shape would waste fuel.
The aircraft manufacturer originally claimed that the 7E7 Dreamliner, due to make its maiden flight in 2007, would be the most eye-catching aircraft in the skies.
But First Choice, the British holiday company which on Wednesday announced it was ordering six Dreamliners, said it would be pressing Boeing to redesign the plane.
Chris Browne, managing director of First Choice, said passengers did not care what the plane looked like as long as fares were cheap and the interior was comfortable.
She said: "Aerodynamics are far more important than the appearance. While it might be nice to look different, the key issue is to reduce fuel consumption."
As a launch customer, First Choice has the right to negotiate with Boeing over the design of the Dreamliner. The present design has an elongated nose and a tail fin that curves out of the fuselage rather than jutting upwards.
The design looks sleeker than existing snub-nosed aircraft but tests by Boeing's engineers have shown that it causes more drag and therefore increases fuel consumption.
Boeing has already been criticised by environmental groups for sacrificing efficiency for the sake of appearance.
Boeing director of environ ment Jeff Hawk said: "There is a trade-off in the design in which we lose a little in terms of overall efficiency. We wanted people to recognise the plane so they could identify with the brand."
But Boeing head of marketing Randy Baseler said that the manufacturer would be prepared to reconsider the design if airlines raised concerns about wasting fuel.
"Airlines are saying to us: 'We want to bring back the magic of flight.' They want something recognisable but we realise they don't want to pay a big fuel penalty for it. The tail is being studied very carefully and it could have some changes."
Mr Baseler said aspects of the Dreamliner's design, including extensive use of composite materials, would make it 20 per cent more efficient than existing airliners.
The Dreamliner will have between 200 and 300 seats
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You mean the design we have seen already is supposed to look good???? With the intense battle for orders with Airbus, Boeing are playing a dangerous game if they are willing to offset efficiency for the shape of the aircraft. I can't see anything wrong with the looks of the 757/767/777 ... why change?
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If Chris Browne is right, why is it that everytime I fly as a passenger on a particular aircraft I can hear other passengers' concerns-just by looking at it?!
She also should hear what her passengers say about the state of her 767s on boarding and during the flight!!!
I personally like the shape of the 7E7, but if it can improved to consume less fuel then why not.
Unfortunately the same people who complain about fuel consumption are the same who give their pilots unbelievable long routes to avoid flying over some particular countries...less taxes but more fuel for longer flight times. I don't know why despite what they say I'm sure it's not a matter of ecology after all...
cheers
FBW
She also should hear what her passengers say about the state of her 767s on boarding and during the flight!!!
I personally like the shape of the 7E7, but if it can improved to consume less fuel then why not.
Unfortunately the same people who complain about fuel consumption are the same who give their pilots unbelievable long routes to avoid flying over some particular countries...less taxes but more fuel for longer flight times. I don't know why despite what they say I'm sure it's not a matter of ecology after all...
cheers
FBW
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Considering it’s Farnborough next weekend, Im not surprised this story has appeared! However I don’t think the Dreamliner will look like the current pictures. I have big doubts about the shark fin style wings and empennage appearing on the actual aircraft. I also wonder about the nose, I personally think it looks graceful a bit like the Comet.
Ah yes the old DH Comet, do Boeing really want people to compare the looks of a 1950's aircraft with their ultra modern jet-liner?
Besides which, I wonder how aerodynamic it actually is?
Another story being put about at the moment is the reliability of the sensors that are going to detect the structural integrity of the composite fuselage sections of 7E7. Also if the composite fuselage takes a knock from ground crew (for example ) will it be able to be ferried to a base for repairs? And at what expense?
P.S. Im not trying to start another Airbus V's Boeing debate. I am unbiased.
Regards
2 Wings
Ah yes the old DH Comet, do Boeing really want people to compare the looks of a 1950's aircraft with their ultra modern jet-liner?
Besides which, I wonder how aerodynamic it actually is?
Another story being put about at the moment is the reliability of the sensors that are going to detect the structural integrity of the composite fuselage sections of 7E7. Also if the composite fuselage takes a knock from ground crew (for example
) will it be able to be ferried to a base for repairs? And at what expense?P.S. Im not trying to start another Airbus V's Boeing debate. I am unbiased.
Regards
2 Wings
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I've not seen any pics, so can't comment from that point of view, but I've heard it said many times that if an aircraft looks right it flies right.
Anyone care to comment?
I've heard a lot of derogatory comments on the A380 - but without paint or engines it's hard to come to a final judgement. Concorde was most definitely and aircraft that looked right....
Anyone care to comment?
I've heard a lot of derogatory comments on the A380 - but without paint or engines it's hard to come to a final judgement. Concorde was most definitely and aircraft that looked right....
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I realise that on proon Boeing heads leap to the defence of their aircraft and love to bash the plastic buses whereas Airbus fans love to push their sidesticks and hose the old Boeings but surely one fact is becoming clear about Boeing in the 21st century:
their marketing department is out of control.
The Sonic Cruiser and 7E7 have both suffered from the marketing people pushing sketches and not hard info, and the engineers are undoubtedly getting the shaft for being the people to bring the bad news.
Boeing's proximity to Microsoft (another firm famous for talking the talk) seems to be catching - perhaps they should move!
Wasn't there some aircraft designer type (British circa WW2?) who designed planes on the basis of good looking planes fly right?
their marketing department is out of control.
The Sonic Cruiser and 7E7 have both suffered from the marketing people pushing sketches and not hard info, and the engineers are undoubtedly getting the shaft for being the people to bring the bad news.
Boeing's proximity to Microsoft (another firm famous for talking the talk) seems to be catching - perhaps they should move!
Wasn't there some aircraft designer type (British circa WW2?) who designed planes on the basis of good looking planes fly right?
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Not to sure how to put images in but if it hasnt worked try this:
7E7 Pictures
I hear the 7E7 is going to have a side-stick or somthing similar!
Not to sure how to put images in but if it hasnt worked try this:
7E7 Pictures
Airbus fans love to push their sidesticks and hose the old Boeings but surely one fact is becoming clear about Boeing in the 21st century:
Paxing All Over The World
I have yet to hear any friend of mine (99% not interested in aviation) say ANYTHING about the shape/look/number of engines attached etc. It is (in no order) all the usual things: [list=1][*]Seat pitch[*]Seat width[*]Food[*]IFE[*]Saftey of carrier[*]Punctuality[*]Price[/list=1]
I understand that the marketing people want to push the brand but the general public do not make their choice of carrier and route, based on the brand of a/c (Note that I say the general public!) Also, don't forget that the word 'jumbo' may now officially be used by any media hack about any a/c that has more than two pax on board.
As to the look of the 7E7. When you remove the paint from the impressionistic marketing pictures and have a plane white plane ... it looks much like you would expect - the development of a 75/76/77!
I understand that the marketing people want to push the brand but the general public do not make their choice of carrier and route, based on the brand of a/c (Note that I say the general public!) Also, don't forget that the word 'jumbo' may now officially be used by any media hack about any a/c that has more than two pax on board.
As to the look of the 7E7. When you remove the paint from the impressionistic marketing pictures and have a plane white plane ... it looks much like you would expect - the development of a 75/76/77!
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based on recent experience, what matters to Joe public travelling long haul.
Seat pitch
Leg room, especially under the seat in front, it's no good if the IFE is taking the foot space, as it did on a recent Delta 777 flight
Seat Comfort. Even if the seat pitch is right, if the seat isn't comfortable, it makes a very unpleasant flight! Same comment about the Delta 777, whatever it was about their seat design, it's about as comfortable as a McDonalds seat, and we all know they're designed to persuade people to move on!
Working IFE. It can be the greatest system since sliced bread, but if it's not working, then forget it!!!
Cabin temp. Too hot, or too cold is no fun at all for 9 hours.
Most of the other things are pretty much equal, but as far as I'm concerned, the above are things I will look at VERY closely in future, the 777 was a severe let down, it was supposed to be good, but it was one of the worst T/Atlantic flights I've had in a long time!
Seat pitch
Leg room, especially under the seat in front, it's no good if the IFE is taking the foot space, as it did on a recent Delta 777 flight
Seat Comfort. Even if the seat pitch is right, if the seat isn't comfortable, it makes a very unpleasant flight! Same comment about the Delta 777, whatever it was about their seat design, it's about as comfortable as a McDonalds seat, and we all know they're designed to persuade people to move on!
Working IFE. It can be the greatest system since sliced bread, but if it's not working, then forget it!!!
Cabin temp. Too hot, or too cold is no fun at all for 9 hours.
Most of the other things are pretty much equal, but as far as I'm concerned, the above are things I will look at VERY closely in future, the 777 was a severe let down, it was supposed to be good, but it was one of the worst T/Atlantic flights I've had in a long time!
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Hi all,
Here, Here, Irish Steve, I agree entirely with your comments regarding the 777 seats, at least in the airlines I've been travelling with, though I know the seat choice is sometimes made by the original operator.
I guess not many 777s are not being operated by their original inservice airlines.
The seats were terrible, and the pitch was just as bad as ever!
Also, the airplane seemed to be always moving in a cyclic pitch and yaw, not very good for pax relaxation, several pax noticed it as well!
Getting real hard to find a business seat on a B727-200 these days, the fastest, quietest and most comfortable trips I ever made - bar none!!
Cheers
Here, Here, Irish Steve, I agree entirely with your comments regarding the 777 seats, at least in the airlines I've been travelling with, though I know the seat choice is sometimes made by the original operator.
I guess not many 777s are not being operated by their original inservice airlines.
The seats were terrible, and the pitch was just as bad as ever!
Also, the airplane seemed to be always moving in a cyclic pitch and yaw, not very good for pax relaxation, several pax noticed it as well!
Getting real hard to find a business seat on a B727-200 these days, the fastest, quietest and most comfortable trips I ever made - bar none!!
Cheers
