PPRuNe Forums

Go Back   PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Tech Log
Forgotten your Username/Password?

Tech Log The very best in practical technical discussion on the web


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 5th May 2004, 22:58   #1 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Birmingham
Age: 31
Posts: 45
Question Tail Wind Vector Calculation

This should be a really simple question, but:

During a flight do you calculate the tail wind component to give you an idea of fuel burn etc...

I was speaking to a BMI pilot about sticking a few extra gauges on the Airbus ECAM cruise page, and the TWC gauge was suggested.

He mentioned (and like an idiot I forgot to write it down) the calculation as something like: GS-TAS or TAS-GS.

Is that the rough method, can anyone please clarify?

Many thanks,

Robbie
Farnborough College of Technology
Aeronautics Department
rmcfarlane is offline  
Old 7th May 2004, 08:17   #2 (permalink)
ft
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: N. Europe
Posts: 439
TWC = GS - TAS will only work if the wind is parallell to your direction of flight. More than that, and it is trig or vector calculations territory. Fortunately made easier to perform on the fly by advanced variations of the slide rule concept.

Some FMCs allow you to enter the predicted winds along the route to get more accurate predictions of fuel burn, top of descent etc.

Even when that is not an option, you should at least compare the actual times for each leg with the planned time, note any significant discrepancies and update your plan accordingly. If it is done, well... Iíll leave that to those who do it on a day to day basis.

Cheers,
Fred
ft is offline  
Old 7th May 2004, 08:27   #3 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Bohol, Philippines
Posts: 117
Am I missing something here - surely regardless of the wind direction the tailwind/headwind component must be GS - TAS?
SFI145 is offline  
Old 7th May 2004, 08:57   #4 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: The Attic
Posts: 219
SFI145, you're absolutely right.

But to calculate the said tailwind component (or headwind, for that matter, which would be a negative value from a TWC perspective) you need to take the cosine of the actual wind and the angle relative to your flightpath.

So the tailwind component of a 120/12 when you're heading (not bearing!) exactly 360 would be 12*COS(180-120), and equals 6 knots.

The EFIS indeed does this by calculating the difference between the TAS value from the ADC and the GS from the IRS/GPS. Looking at the difference between the plane's heading and bearing you can calculate the wind vector by reversing the trig function I posted earlier.

Last edited by A-FLOOR; 7th May 2004 at 13:31.
A-FLOOR is offline  
Old 7th May 2004, 11:37   #5 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Bohol, Philippines
Posts: 117
Is it not rather dangerous to pick a wind angle where the sine and cosine happen to be the same as is the case above.
In fact for headwind and tailwind calculations the cosine of the angle should be used.
The sine will give you the crosswind component.
SFI145 is offline  
Old 7th May 2004, 11:42   #6 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: The Attic
Posts: 219
You're right, my bad

Excuse me while I call my mentor for a flogging session

A-FLOOR is offline  
Old 7th May 2004, 12:59   #7 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 129
Wind readout

Robbie, in this photo you can see the wind readout on a B777 EHSI

They beat you to it
ROB-x38 is offline  
Old 7th May 2004, 13:14   #8 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: The Attic
Posts: 219
ROB-x38

All big EFIS planes that have an inertial reference system seem to have this kind of wind vector, the key is breakdown into two components that are parallel and perpendicular to the plane's trajectory: crosswind and head-/tailwind components.

I recall that in the Boeing FMC's last PROG page. (737, 747 and 777, and I imagine others as well) there is a breakdown for the head-/tailwind and crosswind components.



I haven't seen it in the Airbus MCDU, but like Boeings 'buses have a wind vector on the ND as well, as do the F100/F70s.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/416798/L/

The MD-11 is the only plane I've seen which has a gauge similar to what the guy at the top describes.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/539627/L/

In the upper left corner of the ND you can see it, two perpendicular arrows with the respective indications for the values in knots below the TAS/GS readouts. As you can see it displays a 4-knot headwind.

Last edited by A-FLOOR; 7th May 2004 at 13:30.
A-FLOOR is offline  
Old 11th May 2004, 11:26   #9 (permalink)
ft
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: N. Europe
Posts: 439
SFI145,
if you are flying along with 100K GS and have a 50 K wind perpendicular to the direction of travel, your TAS will be

sqrt( 100^2 + 50^2 ) = 112 K.

Still, there's no tailwind component.

Cheers,
Fred
ft is offline  
Old 11th May 2004, 12:08   #10 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: FNQ ... Still!
Posts: 2,289
...or... Effective TAS is equal to TAS * (cos of the drift angle).

112kts*(cos26)=100.66kts.

What am I doing..get back to sleep damn it!
Capt Fathom is online now  
Old 11th May 2004, 13:59   #11 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Bohol, Philippines
Posts: 117
ft

In your example the wind vector is at right angles to the track but not the heading.
Relative to the heading you certainly do have a headwind component.
The effective TAS method can be used where you are using the track as reference and is used with calculators not having a sliding TAS/Drift capability.
SFI145 is offline  
Old 11th May 2004, 14:56   #12 (permalink)
ft
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: N. Europe
Posts: 439
I think we need to agree on a definition of tailwind component.

My definition: Component of wind parallell to the intended direction of travel.

BTW, you will be crabbing 27 degrees into the wind in the given example. The headwind component (you will never get a TWC at all if you want to remain on track) will then be

50*cos(90-26) = 23 K.

With a TAS of 112 K and a GS of 100 K...

So with GS-TAS or vice versa it is either 100 - 112 = -22 or 112 - 100 = -22. I think not.

Cheers,
Fred

Edited to get the signs of the erroneous TWC components right. 22 knots of HWC is -22 knots of TWC...
ft is offline  
Old 11th May 2004, 15:17   #13 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Bohol, Philippines
Posts: 117
ft

Yes I fully agree with your calculation I made it about 22.6 KT along the heading vector and about 44 KT at right angles.


If you draw the vector diagram or use a CRP then you will see it pictorially.

The easy practical way is to use 'effective' TAS i.e.

TAS * cos Drift

But as you say it all depends on the definition of component.

Obviousy for performance runway calculations the reference is track which will be the runway centreline.
SFI145 is offline  
Old 11th May 2004, 16:12   #14 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: up a wadi without a paddle
Posts: 109
Hang on, am I stupid or did I miss something??

Surely Head/Tail wind component is merely the difference between TAS and an accurate Inertial or sattelite based G/Speed?

Where did I go wrong? Please correct me if I have missed something. In still air, are not TAS and G/S one and the same?
wandrinabout is offline  
Old 11th May 2004, 18:48   #15 (permalink)
ft
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: N. Europe
Posts: 439
wandrinabout,
in still air, they are the same.

But when the air is moving, I think you are forgetting one important fact: All movement has a direction as well as a speed.

Draw the ground speed as an arrow on a paper, with direction and length to represent the speed. Then draw another arrow, starting in the same point, to represent the TAS with the direction of the heading of the aircraft and the length to represent the TAS.

If you draw a third arrow from the tip of the TAS arrow to the tip of the GS arrow, this third arrow will be the wind.

These arrows are what you'd call vectors, and what you just did was in fact to subtract one vector from another. Subtract the GS vector from the TAS vector and you get a third vector representing the wind.

The tailwind component is something else though. It is the part of the wind which blows along the GS vector. The other part which blows perpendicular to the GS vector is the crosswind component.

Probably waaaay oversimplified, but there are probably a few people who are not as knowledgeable as those who post reading this.

Cheers,
Fred
ft is offline  
Old 12th May 2004, 11:34   #16 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: up a wadi without a paddle
Posts: 109
Yessss Fred....

As you so eloquently put it, the wind vector applied to the TAS vector results in the GS vector. And this wind vector is itself comprised of 2 vectors relative to the aircraft - a crosswind vector and a head/tail wind vector , ie tailwind component.

So my point is Fred, that of course wind has direction as well speed. But this discussion is not about drift. It is about tailwind.
So the component of the wind vector that effects the speed over the ground is head/ tailwind vector ie the diff between the TAS and GS is head or tail wind component. The crosswind component results in drift - something else.
wandrinabout is offline  
Old 12th May 2004, 14:44   #17 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Ex-pat Aussie in the UK
Posts: 2,851
Quote:
100 - 112 = -22 or 112 - 100 = -22
Good to see you corrected those signs, ft

If you are flying a sixty knot TAS aircraft, and you want to go north, but there is a sixty knot wind from the west, do you have a sixty knot crosswind, or a sixty knot headwind?
Checkboard is offline  
Old 12th May 2004, 15:32   #18 (permalink)
ft
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: N. Europe
Posts: 439
Checkboard,
good to see you corrected your UBB codes. (Yes, I'm very fast when I want to!)

According to my definition you'd have a 60KT crosswind, not to mention that the correct reply to a request for a position report would be "I'm in deep s..."

wandrinabout,
as shown above, the difference between [the magnitude of the]GS [vector] and [the magnitude of the] TAS [vector] is not at all the same as the TWC, using either definition of TWC.

Cheers,
Fred
ft is offline  
Closed Thread
 
 
 


Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 07:13.


vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
© 1996-2012 The Professional Pilots Rumour Network