New Cessna 172 Checklist
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New Cessna 172 Checklist
Apologies if I'm in the wrong place but I'd appreciate some pointers on where to get a good checklist for the new (2000) C172 I'm learning to fly in. The checklist that came with the aircraft is to my mind abysmal. e.g. if the engine was warm, you didn't need to ..........
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With all due respect, surely you don't need the crutch of a written checklist to help you fly an iddy biddy CESSNA. Certainly you should read the manufacturer's recommendations and learn them by heart. Checklists for these small aircraft are simply not necessary. 55,000 wartime pilots can't all be wrong. If they did not need written checklists to fly Tiger Moths, Spitfires and Lancasters, then it does seem rather superfluous for a Cessna 172 or similar trainer. Unfortunately, the use of written checklists for the easiest of trainers has become a cottage industry with big money to be made. Remember that as you pore over line upon line of what to check next, the VDO meter is ticking over and swallowing your hard earned pennies. And the instructor is gleefully rubbing his hands as he sees his student reading his lines and putting money in the instructors deep pockets. A pox on checklists and the people that insist they are good things for the soul. Big jets, yes. Lighties - no way.
[This message has been edited by Centaurus (edited 20 March 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Centaurus (edited 20 March 2001).]
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Centaurus - no, no, no, no, NO
Use a checklist every time.
This is not wartime. It is not a matter of life and death that he geats airborne FAST. I don't know about pilots in your neck of the woods, but I know many of RAF pilots who used checklists.
Failure to use checklists leads to complacency, to missed items, to bad practices...
As an instructor and Flight Safety Officer, I would be appalled if any more pilots went the way of a former Chief Pilot of mine, whose shutdown checklist appeared to be:-
I am disappointed that, since you list your interests as "flight safety issues" you should encourage an apparently low-experience pilot not to use a checklist.
Use a checklist every time.
This is not wartime. It is not a matter of life and death that he geats airborne FAST. I don't know about pilots in your neck of the woods, but I know many of RAF pilots who used checklists.
Failure to use checklists leads to complacency, to missed items, to bad practices...
As an instructor and Flight Safety Officer, I would be appalled if any more pilots went the way of a former Chief Pilot of mine, whose shutdown checklist appeared to be:-
- Switch off engines
- Get out
- Head for pub
I am disappointed that, since you list your interests as "flight safety issues" you should encourage an apparently low-experience pilot not to use a checklist.
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I am totally with HugMonster. By all means memorize airborne checklists, but those checks done on the ground, and particularly before take-off checklist SHOULD be done from the checklist. It takes almost no extra time and prevents omission of vital actions. I am appalled at the way you have ridiculed the guy for wanting to do things properly and safely.
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Centaurus, checklists are for everyone. I read a report a couple of years ago about a Canadian Airlines DC-10 that took off without slats extended because the crew forgot- a simulation from the FDR tape showed that it climbed out less than 5 knots above the stall 
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Nuke the rainforest- it's more efficient than logging.
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Nuke the rainforest- it's more efficient than logging.
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It's also not just a matter of how complex the a/c is. Many of us often don't fly for a month or two (especially with the really sh**ty weather we've been having).
I have enough trouble just remembering what the Frida and Hazle checks stand for ;-)
I have enough trouble just remembering what the Frida and Hazle checks stand for ;-)
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Well said all.
777 or 172, checklists ARE for all. If you want to fly, then do it properly. It is important to commit regular checks and emergency drills to memory, for obvious reasons. But anyone who does there walkround, start up and power checks from memory is going to get a wake up call one day. Probably at 500 feet on the climb out, an engine failure and.....oh look, forgot to turn the fuel pump on!
...now what....?
777 or 172, checklists ARE for all. If you want to fly, then do it properly. It is important to commit regular checks and emergency drills to memory, for obvious reasons. But anyone who does there walkround, start up and power checks from memory is going to get a wake up call one day. Probably at 500 feet on the climb out, an engine failure and.....oh look, forgot to turn the fuel pump on!
...now what....?
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eject, you'll probably have got the message by now that Centaurus is talking though his arse. Disregard EVERYTHING that he said.
On the use of checks, there is a lot of good advice above in this thread.
Memorise your emergency checks. You'll need them one day. Sit in the aircraft on the ground with checklist in hand and run through them. Make sure you can put your hand to all the knobs and tits, smoothly and fast. Doublecheck what you're doing.
In an emergency, run through the drills from memory. Once you've handled it, get the checklist out and make sure you've done everything.
Memorise your airborne checks. This helps if you're juggling kneeboard, chart, chinagraph, cup of coffee etc. not to have to pick up a checklist. Run through the checks. Then drink the coffee and stow the empty cup somewhere it won't drift forward into the well and jam the rudder pedals, pick up the checklist and read it.
Checks on the ground are not so important to memorise. Therefore, probably more important to use the checklist.
Here's the nub of it:-
It's a checklist. It's not a dolist. Use it every time to make sure you've alreadycarried out the necessary action.
That goes for all checks. Use it every time to make sure. Don't be a slave to it, though. If you find you have to get it out to prompt you on your next action, you need to spend more time learning the checks.
On the use of checks, there is a lot of good advice above in this thread.
Memorise your emergency checks. You'll need them one day. Sit in the aircraft on the ground with checklist in hand and run through them. Make sure you can put your hand to all the knobs and tits, smoothly and fast. Doublecheck what you're doing.
In an emergency, run through the drills from memory. Once you've handled it, get the checklist out and make sure you've done everything.
Memorise your airborne checks. This helps if you're juggling kneeboard, chart, chinagraph, cup of coffee etc. not to have to pick up a checklist. Run through the checks. Then drink the coffee and stow the empty cup somewhere it won't drift forward into the well and jam the rudder pedals, pick up the checklist and read it.
Checks on the ground are not so important to memorise. Therefore, probably more important to use the checklist.
Here's the nub of it:-
It's a checklist. It's not a dolist. Use it every time to make sure you've alreadycarried out the necessary action.
That goes for all checks. Use it every time to make sure. Don't be a slave to it, though. If you find you have to get it out to prompt you on your next action, you need to spend more time learning the checks.
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Having just spent 4 hours cooped up in a 737 simulator teaching people the virtues of the scan then checklist call-out policy of Boeing, I return to pprune to find alligators snapping at my heels.
Leaving aside the personal invectives which have been an all too familiar unpleasant aspect of some correspondence, it is clear I misjudged the almost religious fervour associated with usage of checklists for training aircraft of the C172 et al.
My view of GA checklists as a crutch to remind you of the bleeding obvious, stems from a time when I was teaching a student of another instructor. The student had 12 hours dual under his belt and in the opinion of his instructor was ready for solo. It seems on this occasion, the student had left his checklist at home. When asked to perform his walk-around and before-start checks sans checklist, he confessed that without his checklist to tell what to do, he didn't have a clue. We finally got the show on the road by use of the " old fashioned wartime" left to right scan (used with good effect in modern jet airliners) - which he found easy to accomplish.
We flew, he landed safely, and I asked him to stop the engine on arrival at the flying club. Again, without the availibility of his written checklist, he was unable to recall the close down sequence. Yet he was considered safe for first solo?
A local Air Ambulance company had Cessna 402's. Roller blind checklists were neatly installed on the coaming. The chief pilot put in every imaginable item, a total of 157 of read and do calls, in his attempt to fill up usable space. The opening checklist call was "Good Morning", and No 157 was "Have a Good day". Real professional stuff.
These aircraft could be seen taxying at speed on wet tarmacs, pilots furiously winding the scroll as they performed high power engine checks on the run dragging the brakes. Pity the image of professionalism was spoiled when one pilot, taxying with a misted up windscreen, collected the wing tip of a nearby aircraft as he was shining his torch on the roller blind checklist. Believe me, it really happened.
Or the student that lost 500 feet during a holding pattern after he put his head down to read the descent and approach checks from the written checklist on his knee board. Remember, this is all single pilot stuff - not multi-crew.
Written checklists are appropiate in multi-crew airliners where drills are scannned first by heart, then vital actions confirmed by checklist read by the non-flying pilot.
But in single pilot trainers, using written checklists as a crutch to memory is contrary to the object of staying ahead of the aeroplane. One rarely sees the pilots of a passenger jet conducting a full walk-around pre-flight inspection with a checklist book in hand and torch in the other. Ground engineers either. Not in front of boarding passengers anyway and also not in view of the sticky beaks peering through the airport lounge windows.
We had a Super Connie gracing our airport last week. Lovely aircraft. Saw the flight engineer doing a walk around too. Absent from his gnarled old hands was a checklist.
Blind reliance on written checklists in light single pilot trainers fosters the insidious combination of false sense of security in one's ability in that the checklist will cover everything, laziness in that one cannot be bothered to study the drills and finally the uncomfortable awareness that without the crutch of a written checklist, one really cannot cope with normal flying procedures. In all the above observations I am discussing the use of written checklists for small trainers that are designed for one pilot operation.
Leaving aside the personal invectives which have been an all too familiar unpleasant aspect of some correspondence, it is clear I misjudged the almost religious fervour associated with usage of checklists for training aircraft of the C172 et al.
My view of GA checklists as a crutch to remind you of the bleeding obvious, stems from a time when I was teaching a student of another instructor. The student had 12 hours dual under his belt and in the opinion of his instructor was ready for solo. It seems on this occasion, the student had left his checklist at home. When asked to perform his walk-around and before-start checks sans checklist, he confessed that without his checklist to tell what to do, he didn't have a clue. We finally got the show on the road by use of the " old fashioned wartime" left to right scan (used with good effect in modern jet airliners) - which he found easy to accomplish.
We flew, he landed safely, and I asked him to stop the engine on arrival at the flying club. Again, without the availibility of his written checklist, he was unable to recall the close down sequence. Yet he was considered safe for first solo?
A local Air Ambulance company had Cessna 402's. Roller blind checklists were neatly installed on the coaming. The chief pilot put in every imaginable item, a total of 157 of read and do calls, in his attempt to fill up usable space. The opening checklist call was "Good Morning", and No 157 was "Have a Good day". Real professional stuff.
These aircraft could be seen taxying at speed on wet tarmacs, pilots furiously winding the scroll as they performed high power engine checks on the run dragging the brakes. Pity the image of professionalism was spoiled when one pilot, taxying with a misted up windscreen, collected the wing tip of a nearby aircraft as he was shining his torch on the roller blind checklist. Believe me, it really happened.
Or the student that lost 500 feet during a holding pattern after he put his head down to read the descent and approach checks from the written checklist on his knee board. Remember, this is all single pilot stuff - not multi-crew.
Written checklists are appropiate in multi-crew airliners where drills are scannned first by heart, then vital actions confirmed by checklist read by the non-flying pilot.
But in single pilot trainers, using written checklists as a crutch to memory is contrary to the object of staying ahead of the aeroplane. One rarely sees the pilots of a passenger jet conducting a full walk-around pre-flight inspection with a checklist book in hand and torch in the other. Ground engineers either. Not in front of boarding passengers anyway and also not in view of the sticky beaks peering through the airport lounge windows.
We had a Super Connie gracing our airport last week. Lovely aircraft. Saw the flight engineer doing a walk around too. Absent from his gnarled old hands was a checklist.
Blind reliance on written checklists in light single pilot trainers fosters the insidious combination of false sense of security in one's ability in that the checklist will cover everything, laziness in that one cannot be bothered to study the drills and finally the uncomfortable awareness that without the crutch of a written checklist, one really cannot cope with normal flying procedures. In all the above observations I am discussing the use of written checklists for small trainers that are designed for one pilot operation.
Guest
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I hate to point these out because I don't agree with them, but there are a couple of interesting columns on AvWeb about exactly this topic:
Throw away that stupid checklist!
http://www.avweb.com/articles/pelperch/pelp0001.html
Checklists redux
http://www.avweb.com/articles/pelperch/pelp0002.html
The interesting common link between John Deakin who wrote the above columns, Centaurus and all the pilots in Centaurus's examples is that they are all full-time pros who are immersed in aviation. If they don't fly every day, then it's at least every week or a few times a month. When was the last time the John Deakin or the 'gnarled old Super Connie engineer' had a month when they didn't even think about airplanes? Probably before puberty! That makes a huge difference which I don't think they appreciate.
Something that may be second nature to them certainly isn't to me. With up to a month between flights, it would only be a matter of time before I started forgetting to check some things - maybe that the doors are shut properly. And once you've started forgetting things it seems normal not to check them because that's what you did last time. Nobody's going to point it out until the next check flight. Sure, taking off with a door unlocked isn't by itself a killer, but it could easily be one of those links in a chain that you often see in accident reports.
Throw away that stupid checklist!
http://www.avweb.com/articles/pelperch/pelp0001.html
Checklists redux
http://www.avweb.com/articles/pelperch/pelp0002.html
The interesting common link between John Deakin who wrote the above columns, Centaurus and all the pilots in Centaurus's examples is that they are all full-time pros who are immersed in aviation. If they don't fly every day, then it's at least every week or a few times a month. When was the last time the John Deakin or the 'gnarled old Super Connie engineer' had a month when they didn't even think about airplanes? Probably before puberty! That makes a huge difference which I don't think they appreciate.
Something that may be second nature to them certainly isn't to me. With up to a month between flights, it would only be a matter of time before I started forgetting to check some things - maybe that the doors are shut properly. And once you've started forgetting things it seems normal not to check them because that's what you did last time. Nobody's going to point it out until the next check flight. Sure, taking off with a door unlocked isn't by itself a killer, but it could easily be one of those links in a chain that you often see in accident reports.
Guest
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But Centaurus, Centaurus... You can use all the bad examples that you want. None of these people got in harms way because they were using checklists in a single pilot airplane. They got in harms way, because they were using checklists in a single pilot airplane at the wrong time...
If you want to, I can come up with more examples, where people had incidents/accidents that could have been avoided had they had a checklist to cover for their less than perfect memory when performing "flow checks"...
Where I´m at, you´ll also fail a flighttest if not using a checklist.
As somebody else said: We, who fly everyday, might do fine without written checklists, but many small single pilot aircraft, are flown by people who don´t fly on a regular basis.. To indicate to them, that written checklists are not the safest way to go, is in my mind crazy..!
And yes, I was once an instructor as well, doing my 6 hours a day in Cessnas. Could do it all backwards in my sleep. But I like to think, that I helped more than one of my students staying out of trouble later on, by stressing the importance of having a written checklist, and using it, no matter what type of aircraft..
If you want to, I can come up with more examples, where people had incidents/accidents that could have been avoided had they had a checklist to cover for their less than perfect memory when performing "flow checks"...
Where I´m at, you´ll also fail a flighttest if not using a checklist.
As somebody else said: We, who fly everyday, might do fine without written checklists, but many small single pilot aircraft, are flown by people who don´t fly on a regular basis.. To indicate to them, that written checklists are not the safest way to go, is in my mind crazy..!
And yes, I was once an instructor as well, doing my 6 hours a day in Cessnas. Could do it all backwards in my sleep. But I like to think, that I helped more than one of my students staying out of trouble later on, by stressing the importance of having a written checklist, and using it, no matter what type of aircraft..
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Centaurus, you are arguing against the use of checklists based on an illustration of a student pilot who didn't know his checks.
Sorry, but this is total nonsense.
Sure, that student was not ready for solo.
As I've said above, they should know their checks. Well thought-out scans are also a very useful tool.
But to go from there to "Don't use a checklist" is a completely idiotic conclusion, and more than this, is dangerous.
In my advice to eject - anyone else care to comment on it? - I state that it is important for him to know the checks, particularly the airborne ones. He should also know ALL the procedures. To be unable to do the simplest things without a checklist is simply crazy. Having done everything, he should then get out the checklist and make sure that nothing has been missed.
Your Air Ambulance illustration is not an argument against the use of a checklist. It is about sensible use of a checklist. Likewise, descent and approach checks should be complete well before joining the circuit.
Show all the bad misuse of a checklist all you want. It does not make TOTAL ABSENCE of a checklist any safer.
Please stop advising people to adopt dangerous practice.
Use a checklist - every time. As a checklist, not a do list.
Sorry, but this is total nonsense.
Sure, that student was not ready for solo.
As I've said above, they should know their checks. Well thought-out scans are also a very useful tool.
But to go from there to "Don't use a checklist" is a completely idiotic conclusion, and more than this, is dangerous.
In my advice to eject - anyone else care to comment on it? - I state that it is important for him to know the checks, particularly the airborne ones. He should also know ALL the procedures. To be unable to do the simplest things without a checklist is simply crazy. Having done everything, he should then get out the checklist and make sure that nothing has been missed.
Your Air Ambulance illustration is not an argument against the use of a checklist. It is about sensible use of a checklist. Likewise, descent and approach checks should be complete well before joining the circuit.
Show all the bad misuse of a checklist all you want. It does not make TOTAL ABSENCE of a checklist any safer.
Please stop advising people to adopt dangerous practice.
Use a checklist - every time. As a checklist, not a do list.
Guest
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Speaking as an Engineer, I'd never consign to memory anything I could reasonably look up. One term wrong in an equation because I thought it was consigned to memory correctly could cause disaster.
Speaking as a pilot, I prefer Mnemonics backed up by a checklist. Then, I can use the checklists when time permits, and mnemonics when...
(1) I haven't time. (This would include emergencies, en-route checks in a light aircraft, downwind and pre-landing checks.)
(2) I'm in an open cockpit and don't want to lose the FRCs over the side.
(3) Err, those are the only good reasons I can think off.
The best solution of all is when flying with another pilot / observer, use mnemonics and get them to check you've got it all right on the checklist as you go through. Some checks (such as shutdown) it's safe to do from memory then check on the FRCs yourself.
Having said that, after 50+ hours on a particular type, one can become sufficiently familiar to disregard the FRCs, but it's not a particularly good habit. I did see a friend manage an entire sortie in a Hawker Hunter without reference to the FRCs, but he did have 750hrs on type (and a somewhat above average level of ability).
G
[This message has been edited by Genghis the Engineer (edited 22 March 2001).]
Speaking as a pilot, I prefer Mnemonics backed up by a checklist. Then, I can use the checklists when time permits, and mnemonics when...
(1) I haven't time. (This would include emergencies, en-route checks in a light aircraft, downwind and pre-landing checks.)
(2) I'm in an open cockpit and don't want to lose the FRCs over the side.
(3) Err, those are the only good reasons I can think off.
The best solution of all is when flying with another pilot / observer, use mnemonics and get them to check you've got it all right on the checklist as you go through. Some checks (such as shutdown) it's safe to do from memory then check on the FRCs yourself.
Having said that, after 50+ hours on a particular type, one can become sufficiently familiar to disregard the FRCs, but it's not a particularly good habit. I did see a friend manage an entire sortie in a Hawker Hunter without reference to the FRCs, but he did have 750hrs on type (and a somewhat above average level of ability).
G
[This message has been edited by Genghis the Engineer (edited 22 March 2001).]
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I've instructed on a variety of helicopters, for a variety of organizations who had differing policies on the use of checklists.
I found that people who use the 'challenge & response' method make about the same number of mistakes as those who have to memorize them. In my view single-pilot ops should always use memorized checklists, as it's poor airmanship to be 'head-down' reading a checklist on a pan with engines/props/rotors running.
I found that people who use the 'challenge & response' method make about the same number of mistakes as those who have to memorize them. In my view single-pilot ops should always use memorized checklists, as it's poor airmanship to be 'head-down' reading a checklist on a pan with engines/props/rotors running.
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I can't agree with Centauraus either.
If eject chooses to throw away his checklist, at what stage of his flying career should he pick it up again?...do you need one for IR training?, what about multi?, MCC would be fun without one and you sure as hell aren't going to get let lose on a 737 with a 'kick the tyres, light the fires' attitude! Setting high standars from the outset of one's flying can only be a good thing....even if you only want to be a PPL.
I accept that over reliance on a written checklist can be a bad thing and may be an indication of the 'wrong stuff' in certain individuals, personally, I only use mine on the ground i.e. when there is no pressure. I know the emergency drills by heart, together with a left right scan and I use mnemonics for all other airborne checks.
I flew with an ATPL friend of mine some time ago (in his aeroplane), who has the same attitude to checklists in 'puddlejumpers' as Centauraus.
Whilst I have the utmost confidence in his ability to handle the thing competently should the worst happen, he looked pretty silly when the Tower asked him to put the anti-coll and nav lights on as we taxied out at dusk and sillier still as we climbed out squawking 'Hijack' which had previously misdialled and left on.
If eject chooses to throw away his checklist, at what stage of his flying career should he pick it up again?...do you need one for IR training?, what about multi?, MCC would be fun without one and you sure as hell aren't going to get let lose on a 737 with a 'kick the tyres, light the fires' attitude! Setting high standars from the outset of one's flying can only be a good thing....even if you only want to be a PPL.
I accept that over reliance on a written checklist can be a bad thing and may be an indication of the 'wrong stuff' in certain individuals, personally, I only use mine on the ground i.e. when there is no pressure. I know the emergency drills by heart, together with a left right scan and I use mnemonics for all other airborne checks.
I flew with an ATPL friend of mine some time ago (in his aeroplane), who has the same attitude to checklists in 'puddlejumpers' as Centauraus.
Whilst I have the utmost confidence in his ability to handle the thing competently should the worst happen, he looked pretty silly when the Tower asked him to put the anti-coll and nav lights on as we taxied out at dusk and sillier still as we climbed out squawking 'Hijack' which had previously misdialled and left on.
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Unfortunately, in the real world of the wilds of Northern Australia, few pilots use written checklists, and for those CPL pilots who get their first job flying C210 into bush strips, or those in New Guinea doing 25 landings a day in a 206, there is simply no time for the leisurely reading of checklists.
Pilots brought up on a diet of read and do written words are going to get a culture shock when the boss says get this show on the road and cut the crap with checklists.
If the active use of GA checklists were that vital to safety as some correspondents insist, then surely the Air Safety authorities in NT and New Guinea would legislate for them.
Pilots brought up on a diet of read and do written words are going to get a culture shock when the boss says get this show on the road and cut the crap with checklists.
If the active use of GA checklists were that vital to safety as some correspondents insist, then surely the Air Safety authorities in NT and New Guinea would legislate for them.
