East Midlands incident.

[Harry Wayfarers]

A mayday state can allways be downgraded

So the crew over-reacted declaring that the aircraft and passengers were in an imminent life threatening situation and people wonder why the authorities went shutting down a motorway etc.

[Piltdown Man]

No, the crew did not necessarily over react. I'm sure they did what they were trained to do. The over-reaction was on the ground. Whenever I have declared an emergency I have always let ATC know what our problem is, the implications of that problem, what I want from them and what I don't. How they deal with things is up to them. I'm sure this crew will have done the same.

[Avitor]

Perhaps the police practice for when they have good reason to shut the roads to traffic. Shutting roads gives a greater hue to their yellow coats.

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by Piltdown Man

Whenever I have declared an emergency I have always let ATC know what our problem is, the implications of that problem, what I want from them and what I don't. How they deal with things is up to them. I'm sure this crew will have done the same.

That's very likely the case in this instance, too.

The problem would appear to be that by the time the message got through to the police it had become the aeronautical equivalent of "send three and fourpence, we're going to a dance".

[Harry Wayfarers]

No, the crew did not necessarily over react. I'm sure they did what they were trained to do. The over-reaction was on the ground.

In one of my previous lives I did Air Traffic Control:

If an aircraft declared a PAN our reaction was "OK, we've got a problem"

If an aircraft declared a MAYDAY then "Holy Sh1t" and people would run around with heads up butts.

In this instance, it seems, the crew declared a MAYDAY and people on the ground ran around with heads up butts inconveniencing all users of the M1 motorway in the process.

So why the criticism of the authorities on the ground when it was the aircraft commander that instigated any over-reaction?

[Piltdown Man]

So who is the guilty party them? Harry, you are a panic merchant. ATC have the benefit of being in a nice warm room that doesn't move too much, tea that won't shake itself into your lap and with colleagues around who they can turn to for advice. And when they hear "Mayday", it's not them who will be in the smoking hole. That should (and normally does) put them leagues ahead of us. They can think about things in their nice dark rooms (or bright an airy - I honestly haven't a clue) that we haven't thought about. Whether the term used is Mayday or Pan Pan, it shouldn't really matter. The message is that it ain't "Ops normal". That doesn't mean draw out your life savings from an ATM in case the plane crashes into your bank's head office or close the bloody M1. It's just a statement that your help is required.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Whether the term used is Mayday or Pan Pan, it shouldn't really matter.

It's just a statement that your help is required.

That's a very one sided, and somewhat ignorant, statement.

Flight Crew are not the only ones to have training and procedures to adhere to as best they can, air traffic control too have their procedures, particularly emergency procedures, and if they have hit the emergency button then, pretty much, all hell breaks loose, the fire service, ambulance service, police etc. etc. etc., they all want answers and they want them now, it can be pandemonium in a tower when "an imminent loss of life" has just been broadcast to them and get it wrong then serious and legal repercussions could follow.

Sure it can be more nerve-racking in a flight deck than in a tower but you applied for your job and I applied for mine!

[KelvinD]

I am just the same as all the posters on this thread; I really don't have a clue what happened as I wasn't there!
However, I can imagine the following scenario post the British Midland incident all those years ago:
Big post mortem meeting between all affected services, organisations etc.
How effective were various responses?
What can and should be done in the event this happens again in future?
Set out conclusions and recommendations in a series of pre-ordained procedures in the event of scenarios X,Y or Z happening.
And this time, the procedures were followed.
What would have been the response if it all went bad this time without any such procedures and an aircraft ended up on top of 20 cars, 12 lorries and a school bus?
I would wager the same people currently condemning and criticising all and sundry on this forum would be doing exactly the same, only louder!
Why not give it a break and wait for the inevitable inquiry publishes its findings?

[Harry Wayfarers]

KelvinD,

If single engine approaches over motorways are to, standardly, close the motorway then LGW and the M23, LHR and the M25, SOU and the M27, STN and the M11, to name but four and as for Duxford and the M11, well does Duxford get much traffic with more than one engine?

Whether it be a PAN or a MAYDAY it's still a '7700' squawk that warns all others to stay away, it's been suggested that a MAYDAY can always be downgraded at a later time, yes and a PAN can always be upgraded at a later time.

It might be discretionary upon the aircraft commander whether he declares a PAN or a MAYDAY but, on the ground, not everything in life is discretionary, procedures are in place for specific scenarios, ... Emergency service to ATC "Did he declare a PAN or a MAYDAY?", ATC to emergency service "He declared a MAYDAY", emergency service to ATC "Holy ****"!

[KelvinD]

Harry W: I wasn't suggesting a standard procedure, merely speculating what may have happened in the Kegworth incident.

[Chesty Morgan]

SOU and the M27 happens...there's history there too though.

[DaveReidUK]

I suspect that the fallout from BA38 (different circumstances, but could easily have ended up as another Kegworth) has also changed for ever the attitude of the civil authorities.

I don't think we will in future see an airliner with a reported fuel-related emergency making an approach over a live motorway.