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SWISS LX40 [ZRH-LAX] diversion to Iqaluit

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SWISS LX40 [ZRH-LAX] diversion to Iqaluit

Old 3rd Feb 2017, 04:31
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Aviation Herald also reporting "automatic shutdown" of engine.

Incident: Swiss B773 near Iqaluit on Feb 1st 2017, engine automatically shut down in flight

Still no word about how they're planning to get HB-JND out of Iqaluit, but I'm scanning FR24 for any movement.
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 04:54
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Question:

Why must the United States FAA authorize a non-revenue ferry flight (for repairs), of a plane presently in the Canadian arctic, that is owned and operated by a Swiss airline, so long as that flight isn't to or over US territory?

Does the FAA have that power simply because the plane or key parts were made by a US company?

Or because the FAA certified the "type"?

Or ????
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 05:55
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Technically, they wouldn't need FAA approval, but they would need CAA (and probably EASA) approval. If it was something that had been previously approved by the FAA (such as the 747 3 engine ferry) getting such approval would be trivial. But if it's something that's not been previously approved, the local authorities will want to know why, and what could go wrong (which in the case of a single engine ferry is painfully obvious).
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 06:19
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A Swiss International Air Lines Boeing 777 300 (SWR40) from Zurich, Switzerland (LSZH) to Los Angeles, CA (KLAX) declared a PAN PAN due to engine failure at 1825Z. The aircraft descended to FL220 and diverted to Iqaluit, NU (CYFB) on single engine. SWR40 requested emergency services at destination. The aircraft landed safely without incident at 2003Z. No impact to operations.

(Cont'd from abv):
A Swiss International Air Lines Boeing 777 300 (HB-JND/ SWR40) from Zurich, Switzerland (LSZH) to Los Angeles, CA (KLAX) (diverted to Iqaluit, NU, see # 2017C0405) got stuck in the turn around bay at the Threshold of 16. The runway was NOTAMed closed until the aircraft was towed clear at 2110Z. The closure resulted in a First Air Bae RJ85 (C-FLRJ/ FAB955) from Yellowknife, NT (CYZF) to Iqaluit, NU (CYFB) holding until able to land at 2121Z and a Canadian North Boeing 737-300 (C-GZCN/ MPE436) from Ottawa, ON (CYOW) to Iqaluit, NU (CYFB) diverting to Kuujjuaq, QC
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 06:23
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I had a tower shaft failure on a GE. With no drive to the accessory section engine quits asap!
There is a distinct difference between a shutdown and a failure.

Shutdown is performed on an engine that is basically still performing, while some indications issue a caution or warning. It is a precaution, long or very short term.

A failure has affected an engine and as a consequence it will no longer function, at least not for long or not with the desired performance.
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 06:27
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Originally Posted by porterhouse
It is up to the airline how they want to handle it. I know United had test pilots for jobs like that - they would fly a crippled airliner sometimes across the globe.
I'm sure they did - when they flew DC-6s, DC-7s, DC-8s, Viscounts, B720s, etc.

Spot the difference.
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 07:20
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Again I say I've been out of it a long time, but I did several 3-engine ferries on 4-engine aircraft, but I've never heard of a single-engine ferry on a twin. I'd not be the person to do it.
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 07:45
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I heard of another situation recently where a crew had an inflight shutdown......after talking with ops control they were persuaded to overfly a perfectly acceptable airport and return to home base, which was much more convenient for everyone involved......except the pilots who are most likely going to be fired. Granted this is still at the rumor level but sounds about right.
Common to do ferry flights on all 4 engine and 3 engine ac like MD11 and Tristar. Have never heard of of a twin ever doing this.....all though in theory if runway was 8km long it is possible but would never be approved by Faa / Easa
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 08:14
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Is there any info what sort of issue the engine had?
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 08:38
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ONE ENGINE FERRY FLIGHT on a B777?

Ever heard of VMC G and VMC A ? You won't need a 8km runway, as you will be out of it after 200m!
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 08:49
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And now that I think of it, with their historical background, I really understand a Swiss crew's mindset not to bypass an usable airport on their way to one slightly better but an hour further...
Swissair 111 springs to my mind. Maybe there is a mindset now within Swiss to get the hell down as soon as possible?
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 08:50
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Report quoted by ExXB:
"A Swiss International Air Lines Boeing 777 300 (HB-JND/ SWR40) from Zurich, Switzerland (LSZH) to Los Angeles, CA (KLAX) (diverted to Iqaluit, NU, see # 2017C0405) got stuck in the turn around bay at the Threshold of 16. The runway was NOTAMed closed until the aircraft was towed clear at 2110Z."

Here's a link to an aerodrome chart:
https://www.fltplan.com/AwDisplayAppChart.exe?a=1

If that chart is well-drawn and still current, the turn-round bay near the end of Rwy 34 would present quite a challenge for a long-wheelbase twin taxying on one engine, particularly in wintry conditioons.
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 09:01
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Swiss International Arlines tweets:

"Flugzeugtechniker sind in Iqaluit, um die genaue Ursache des Triebwerkausfalles der Boeing 777-300ER abzuklären und das weitere Vorgehen zu bestimmen."


Aircraft technicians working in Iqaluit in order to find out the engine failure and determining how to go on from there.
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 09:12
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Does anyone have a definitive answer as to whether a GE (or RR, or whoever) engine control will command an autonomous engine shutdown.
Yes, I too can imagine circumstances where it might or alternatively why it should not. And no, I don't mean the engine just ceasing to run because of catastrophic failure, and without being commanded to do so by the controller(s).
But will it?
I can think of several circumstances where it might be a good idea to let the controllers expeditiously command a power / speed reduction. I can even imagine circumstances where, if such a power reduction didn't bring the initiating problem back within tolerable limits it would then be a really good idea to shut the engine down in a hurry rather than risk a disastrous outcome.


But, do any of the major engine manufacturers actually let the system make that decision. And if so, what exactly are those circumstances.
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 09:15
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cassablanca

I heard of another situation recently where a crew had an inflight shutdown......after talking with ops control they were persuaded to overfly a perfectly acceptable airport and return to home base,
Interesting. I believe this one comes up sometimes on our command upgrades in LOFT detail ( on a twin) . Agreeing to overfly could end up with an interesting debrief.

My two pence worth - The way I play it if I'm faced with a rare "land the nearest suitable airfield" problem or similiar and end up with the time to contact ops control I tell them either:

1. Where I am diverting to.

If it's lightly slightly less dire problem I'll tell them

2: A list of places I am prepared to go.

Only MHO.....

wingnut

But, do any of the major engine manufacturers actually let the system make that decision. And if so, what exactly are those circumstances.
Have a look back at some of tdracer's recent posts.

Last edited by wiggy; 3rd Feb 2017 at 10:59.
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 09:28
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Originally Posted by wiggy
cassablanca
Have a look back at some of tdracer's recent posts.
Oops, missed that.
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 10:23
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EK380:

In spite of Vmcg and Vmca, taking off on a single engine would be possible - just do not start right away with full thrust, but with the amount that leaves enough control power to stay on the centerline. As speed increases, so does control power and so you gradually push up the thrust. Guaranteed to work. Needed runway length would be surprisingly short - no need to consider accelerate-stop distance if you begin the run with one engine already failed?

Off course, whether it would be advisable to start a flight on a twin with one engine out is a completely different matter.
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 10:51
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Off course, whether it would be advisable to start a flight on a twin with one engine out is a completely different matter.
Yep; that's why it's got two engines
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 10:52
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I cannot for the life of me believe that there are so-called professionals advocating a single engine ferry on a 777. UNBELIEVABLE!!!
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 11:08
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Even if a single GE xxx has sufficient power to theoretically get an empty twin engined aircraft airborne, how would you control the extreme yawing moment caused by setting take-off thrust on only one side ???


As EK380 alludes to, you would not have the steering or rudder authority to keep the thing straight, and I don't know if any runway is long enough to accelerate to Vmcg before setting take-off thrust and then on to V1 and still leave enough distance for an RTO.

Anyone who has done a low speed RTO on a twin engined aircraft in the SIM will know how impossible this would be - losing an engine on a twin at even 40kts with flex thrust set, results in a very sudden and significant yaw, and if you don't get both engines back to idle PDQ, and brake, you will be off the side of the runway.

(Three engined ferry flights, (my experience was BAe146), call for the two symmetrical engines to be set at take-off thrust, and the third engine must only be 'throttled up' above a certain airspeed.)

And even assuming you could get airborne, you would be flying a twin on one engine, which is a LAND ASAP (RED) situation = Land NOW at the nearest suitable runway, i.e. the one you just took off from !!!
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