So in the event of a go around
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So in the event of a go around
is it normal procedure for the pilots to check the engine instruments after the power has been applied, just to confirm they are spooling up, I'm sure can work out where this question comes from.
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TBH With go around power selected its normally quite obvious without checking yout N1 or EPR readings the engines are indeed spooling up, And if there not your in a whole world of poo i would have thought
where are those FADEC C/Bs.............
where are those FADEC C/Bs.............
Last edited by Brigantee; 10th Sep 2016 at 03:13.
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Noise, attitude and acceleration are a good guide, along with the instruments, but the seat of the pants is usually a reliable indicator too.
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Thanks for the replies, I was thinking about Dubai, obviously the crew were busy, but neither of them seemed to notice the lack of urge from the motors, a glance at the engine readings might have helped/ saved the day?
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Depends on company SOP, some will have a "check thrust" type of call, but it will come low down on the list of jobs to do when GA is called, from memory from when we used to do it, it was several seconds into the GA manoeuvre.
Standard Boeing (737NG), but i would imagine the same for 777 does not have any thrust application verification call at all. As others have said, you feel it. On a 2 eng GA it's less critical to get the thrust completely correct, on a 1 eng GA it is much more critical.
Having said all that if I'm not mistaken the 777 operates with the auto-throttle engaged to touchdown, so I assume the crew believed that having pressed TOGA that the thrust would kick in.
Standard Boeing (737NG), but i would imagine the same for 777 does not have any thrust application verification call at all. As others have said, you feel it. On a 2 eng GA it's less critical to get the thrust completely correct, on a 1 eng GA it is much more critical.
Having said all that if I'm not mistaken the 777 operates with the auto-throttle engaged to touchdown, so I assume the crew believed that having pressed TOGA that the thrust would kick in.
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Having said all that if I'm not mistaken the 777 operates with the auto-throttle engaged to touchdown, so I assume the crew believed that having pressed TOGA that the thrust would kick in.
A/T is inhibited for a few seconds on Boeing 777 if wheels have touched the ground - you have to shove the throttles forward if you want to get out of trouble PDQ
surely to get yourself out of trouble you want some power PDQ?
I am sure this will point to the interface of reliance on A/T and wheels on the ground sensors whereby A/T is inhibited for some seconds unless you shove the throttles yourself in a TOGA situation - which is flawed automation in my limited brain - it leaves open as it did in other accidents the crew thinking everything will be done for them and the plane will not crash
surely to get yourself out of trouble you want some power PDQ?
I am sure this will point to the interface of reliance on A/T and wheels on the ground sensors whereby A/T is inhibited for some seconds unless you shove the throttles yourself in a TOGA situation - which is flawed automation in my limited brain - it leaves open as it did in other accidents the crew thinking everything will be done for them and the plane will not crash
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In types I've flown you don't get an aural warning if you press a button on something which is either unserviceable or inhibited for some reason such as the TOGA buttons on the 777 after touchdown and I believe I read in the other thread that Boeing operate in much the same way.
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Not a Boeing driver so I'll leave that to someone else but as I fly a type without an auto throttle in the sense that Boeing and Airbus etc use (we have a Constant Torque system which regulates fuel flow to maintain a target power setting used in take off or on a go-around. Power levers above a certain position and PF calls for the system to be turned on by a switch. Once activated it will accelerate the engines to the desired setting and maintain it until the system is de-activated or power levers retarded significantly) the idea of not following the throttles on something like a go-around is entirely alien and having flown this type I can't imagine ever trusting an autothrottle system in the future enough to not have my hand on the levers.
the PF the landing usually always has his hand on the thrust levers even if the landing is flown down on AP ? or so I thought
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I believe some Boeing models limit the G/A thrust to rate of climb of 2000 feet per minute, so the acceleration might not be as obvious as it would be, to say an Exec jet, which is over powered anyway.
If you work on the concept that lift is a gift but thrust is a must, you won't really go wrong.
But when 2 people decide to go flying, taking 200 plus people with them, and retract gear and flaps without any thrust, something Is wrong. Not 1 thing, but several... Not all of them aviation related.
Some of those other issues affect PJ operators, some don't.
The better the company you work for, the fewer the reasons for ignoring airmanship, would be my opinion fwiw.
If you work on the concept that lift is a gift but thrust is a must, you won't really go wrong.
But when 2 people decide to go flying, taking 200 plus people with them, and retract gear and flaps without any thrust, something Is wrong. Not 1 thing, but several... Not all of them aviation related.
Some of those other issues affect PJ operators, some don't.
The better the company you work for, the fewer the reasons for ignoring airmanship, would be my opinion fwiw.
an unexpected GA with all engines working OK especially if you have already touched down is one of the hardest things to get right
all so unexpected and things can go wrong very quickly (think fly Dubai and EK)
all so unexpected and things can go wrong very quickly (think fly Dubai and EK)
On a 777 for a normal manual landing the auto throttle would be armed but not engaged unless you are auto landing. Pushing the go around switches will engage them give you a 2000 feet per minute climb. Push them a second time and you get full power.
Rick777, I don't fly the 777 but from what I have read, the Boeing policy is for manual flight to be with Autothrottle ON? Also pushing the go-around buttons doesn't work once on the ground.
To the OP, our SOP is to apply thrust and pitch up, call for go-around flap and airbrake in, once a positive rate has been confirmed call for gear up, then check power. This sequence, although it does check the power, does not check it soon enough to fix the Dubai crash. We have a type with autothrottle and a type without, the SOP is the same on both except the TOGA buttons would be pushed on the autothrottle type.
To the OP, our SOP is to apply thrust and pitch up, call for go-around flap and airbrake in, once a positive rate has been confirmed call for gear up, then check power. This sequence, although it does check the power, does not check it soon enough to fix the Dubai crash. We have a type with autothrottle and a type without, the SOP is the same on both except the TOGA buttons would be pushed on the autothrottle type.
FWIW my operator uses Boeing procedures on the 777 for pretty much everything and our policy is autothrottle "on" (or "engaged" ) at all times, even for manual flight......
Last edited by wiggy; 20th Sep 2016 at 10:07.
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This whole discussion seems to be dancing around yet another rule of basic airmanship: Guard the throttles when near the ground, and make them do what you need them to do!
It doesn't matter if autothrottles are on or off, operating, asleep, or failed. On a go-around, push the TOGA button if applicable, follow OR PUSH the thrust levers forward, and make sure they stay there!
It doesn't matter if autothrottles are on or off, operating, asleep, or failed. On a go-around, push the TOGA button if applicable, follow OR PUSH the thrust levers forward, and make sure they stay there!
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Even though the SOP is to fly with the autothrottle on all the time, I think it's important to always think that the autothrottle is off and only there to back you up, and not the other way round. Never assume you're just there to back it up.
I fear that new pilots and those that have spent many hours on Airbus have already lost this important link.
I fear that new pilots and those that have spent many hours on Airbus have already lost this important link.
Last edited by Catapault; 6th Oct 2016 at 09:17.
