COULD you land a passenger jet (if you ONLY hold a PPL)???

[wiggy]

Thanks W.

As a long term Boeing user /current 777 driver, but a frequent pax on Monsieur Airbus's shorthaul product that was interesting stuff - I must admit having now read your differences course I think in the event that I'm commuting home and we get the "can anyone fly an aeroplane" PA I think I'll hide in the loo

[Wirbelsturm]

Wiggy, you'd be fine, trust me!

[Dan Winterland]

''That's not correct in this instance. The RAT wasn't deployed as, initially, they still had electrical power. One of Sully's masterstrokes was to start the APU almost immediately after the bird strike, so they never lost electrical power. They remained in Normal Law and had High AoA protection. It's one of the things which saved them.''

I just read the report. It appears the high pressure section on at least one of the engines was still running fast enough for the IDG to produce enough power to keep the electrical system in a normal configuration. If both engines had completely failed, there wouldn't have been enough time to start the APU to prevent the RAT deploying. It takes about 40 seconds for the APU to be available after initiating a start, the RAT would have deployed immediately on loss of both AC busses.

Interestingly, all three hyd systems were available until touchdown.

[Dan Winterland]

Wiggy - the Airbus electrickery is there to make it fly like a conventional aircraft, which it does. Most pilots get the hang of the sidestick thingy in a minute or two. The pitchdown in landing law makes the pilot flare convetionally - most don't even realise it's happening. It's easy.

If you don't correct, it lands like an F4!

[Wirbelsturm]

If you don't correct, it lands like an F4!

Having been fortunate to have a play in an F4 I can categorically say that a few of my 'Bus landings were indeed similar! Unfortunately

[qf747400]

I have been watching this discussion with some interest. I am a boring lawyer by profession but with an abiding admiration for all pilots.

Thanks to a very comfortable income I have been able to spend many hours in both full motion commercial simulators (Qantas and Malaysia) and fixed (737-800 and 777). Additionally I have some hours in a Cessna 172 although no plans to get a PPL.

I spent many, many hours on MSFS using PMDG 747-400 before I first went for simulator sessions with Qantas. A lot of manuals were also read.

For those who doubt the following there are videos to confirm a lot of this...

so with no real world experience (and yes I know it's a simulator) I have undertaken full flights from pre-flight, to programming the fmc, take off, climb , descent, and landing in manual and fully auto mode.

I have had engine failures on take off, multiple TCAS avoidance procedures, terrain avoidance procedures (even in a simulator applying full power to avoid imminent controlled flight into terrain can be interesting), and stall recovery techniques.

No-one was injured in the process and there was no loss of aircraft (albeit occasionally some puckering of the buttocks!).

So my thoughts on the original question posed:

1. Given the stress involved no non-commercial pilot would manage it flying manually

2. Anyone holding a PPL with no prior involvement of simulated heavies would stuggle even in full auto mode given a lack of familiarity of the aircraft systems

3. Yes it is technically possible for a non-pilot to land a heavy using all of the automated help available but frankly in the real world I really wonder!!! Hope I never have to find out!

Thanks lot all of the ral pilots out there.

[nimsu1987]

I know this is an old thread and apologies if it's not appropriate after this time, please feel free to delete.

No offence OP but I just find your gung ho attitude a little disturbing. I'm sure in real life you are an excellent pilot, but misguided opinions of one's own abilities can be deadly.

I also just want to point out that as a PPL holder myself, I in no way think I could land a jet, and many of us do not think as such.

One other point. You mention 'proof' that it can be done by using level-d sims as examples. This is certainly not proof, which as a pilot, I would have thought you would have realised.

Sorry if I have misjudged your attitude OP, obviously I understand you're trying to get your point across, but it just seems a little arrogant and misguided. Stay safe.

[Heathrow Harry]

agreed- but if it comes down to having a PPL have a go and no one flying it then I vote for the PPL

There is always a chance he/she would manage it without killing everyone

[CPT733]

Awsome Thread and have always wondered the same

Im currently a CPL student in syd

one question i didnt come across or it may have skipped my eye here..

Simulators like the link i posted below, Can they be adjusted say to flying difficulty type etc?

Flight Experience - Flight Simulators - Take the ride of your life on our Flight Simulators

Cause i have flown in that simulator and its quiet different to the single engine sim at school and landing that 737 was a piece of piss which didnt make sence as to how landing an airliner could be so easy....

Ive been on FS since i was 15 and have decent knowledge in flying single eng but still didnt justify how i could adapt to it i had always thought there must be a beginners or easy fly setting...

( BTW I WAS DOING CROSSWIND LANDINGS AT KAI-TEK AND WELLINGTON IN THE 737 SIM)

[darkroomsource]

A PPL with MSFS experience, maybe not, but two mythbusters with absolutely no experience did it when they had help on the radio...
Myth: Person With No Flying Experience Can Land : Discovery Channel

They each tried twice, on the first try they had no outside help and each of them crashed the simulator. On the second try, with someone talking them through the process over the radio they each were able to land the plane safely, and they were manually flying the plane.

two for two, no help, crash
two for two, with help, land safely

does this prove anyone can do it? no, does it prove it can be done? I think yes.

[Lookleft]

It would also depend on the weather. Simulators are hopeless at simulating all those micro climate effects on an aircraft in hot or windy conditions.

[bolkow]

Was there not an incidetn some years back I believe in China where a flight sim enthusiast entered a 747 cockpit in flight took the plane and executed a barrel roll just to prove to himself that he could do it?
From what I recall he executed that manouver successfully however foolish and risky itmay have been?
In the last ananysis I have no idea of its possible or not but its certainly an interestign subject

[reverserunlocked]

I'm sure someone with a little flying experience could at least bring the thing down to a survivable crash landing, which I accept is somewhat different from being able to nail a greaser in the TDZ, taxi in, start up the APU whilst remembering to kill the taxi light before turning into the gate to perfectly line up with AGNIS.

Modern aircraft are pretty resilient structures these days. All walked from the BA 777 at LHR and most survived the TK 737 crash at AMS. If you can find a suitably large piece of ground and come down at flattish angle at a reasonable speed then your chances of walking away (or at worse hobble) are good.

[wiggy]

darkroomsource

They each tried twice, on the first try they had no outside help and each of them crashed the simulator. On the second try, with someone talking them through the process over the radio they each were able to land the plane safely, and they were manually flying the plane.

The problem with the Mythbusters scenario is that from some of the footage it appeared to me that the expert help was sat at the external sim console, in which case he could see the same flight instruments (and possibly the also visual CGI picture) as Jamie and Adam. That would make his job of coaching them significantly easier than if he was having to extract possibly fast changing vital information from them, such as airspeed, altitude and attitude, verbally via the R/T.

Bolkow

Was there not an incidetn some years back I believe in China where a flight sim enthusiast entered a 747 cockpit in flight took the plane and executed a barrel roll just to prove to himself that he could do it?

Nope, really not heard of that one - there was a notorious incident involving a China Airlines 747 ending up an interesting attitude and subsequently attaining an interesting airspeed , but that was achieved by a qualified crew - there's also the incident involving a passenger gaining access to the flight deck of a 747 over Africa a few years back and "wrestling" with the crew for control of the aircraft....maybe you're confusing/combining the two incidents?

[sixtiesrelic]

Reverserunlocked, a week or two ago, in Australia, I saw a program on Foxtel in which a 727 was crash landed in the desert over in Mexico by remote control after the pilot bailed out at about two thousand feet.
The remote control was done in a chase plane close to.
They landed a little bit short of a graded strip at just TWO THOUSAND feet a minute ROD. Take your eye away for a second and you can get that.
the 72 is a pretty beefy aeroplane and it landed up in a nasty mess, so I have to disagree with your opinion that modern aircraft are pretty resiliant. I reckon eggs are more resiliant.

[JEM60]

Surely hitting the ground with an ROD of 2,000' per min. is a very high rate of descent for any type of aircraft to survive relatively intact!

[sixtiesrelic]

I agree it is a high rate of descent and in the hands of an inexperieced person or even being a bit rough while playing in the simulator during a bit of free flight, it happens in a wink and the change in body angle is very small.

[wiggy]

To be fair reverserunlocked didn't claim that after the survivable crash landing the aircraft would be flyable again!

FWIW numbers from the AAIB report on the BA777 accident at LHR:

The aircraft’s initial impact was at a descent rate of about 1,400 fpm
and a peak normal load of about 2.9g.

As we know they ended up sans gear and there were a handful of injuries caused by debris entering the fuselage.

FWIW I'm still of the opinion that a "coached" via radio autoland is by far the simmers/PPLrs best chance of producing something survivable at the first attempt on a real machine , IMHO probably the only option that might give you odds of surviving of above 50%. If they are not coached, and/or the automatics are disengaged the odds of producing anything survivable would plummet (poor choice of words)

[EEngr]

FWIW I'm still of the opinion that a "coached" via radio autoland is by far the simmers/PPLrs best chance of producing something survivable at the first attempt on a real machine,

To continue along this line, given sufficient fuel and some clear air space, I'd try some dry runs at maintaining descent rates and getting the feel of the controls with the coach over the radio before actually attempting the real landing. Its probably safer to practice following a 'glide path' from 5000 down to 4000 feet a few times.

[DIBO]

This thread is about whether a qualified PPL is able to 'land' a large acft. We have all seen the different TV series where an untrained person gives it a try in a simulator, sometimes more of less successful.
But it has also been done, in a planned organised fashion, on a real airliner, a B738 being landed by a total non-aviation person. He did however receive a 'crash'-course (so to speak) in about 4 weeks: starting with PPL-theory course, then in an SR20 up to his first solo, followed by several sim-trainings and finally the touch-and-goes in a 738, being talked through by the training capt. sitting next to him. The first attempt was saved by the TOGA button, the second attempt and ‘successful’ contact with mother earth you can watch in:
TomTesterom (in Dutch)
- start of the clip: you see the TV person wearing the 3 bars and briefing the cc for his first ever B738 flight
- 01:07 the actual first ‘landing’ (it was actually a touch and go)
- 01:46 his first solo take-off few weeks before …
- 02:45 ... followed by his first solo landing

Difficult to judge whether the acquired skill from his ‘crash’ course equal or supersede the required skills to land a B738, compared to the skill of a seasoned PPL with GA-only experience….

And ... it caused quite a stirr upto the parliament