Any L1011's still flying??
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why it didn't sell better: heavier, so dearer trip cost than DC-10; dual-skin hull, so bilge, attracting corrosion; Expat.Brit (ex-TSR.2 &tc) Agency-designers, so brick-dunny (see VC.10 v.707). Some vendors as second-choice and unique (e.g: Ham Standard APU/environmental control, Garrett taking DC-10), so low volume, so slow/dear/losing interest: e.g the up-and-over pax door actuator was by one-off Talley: spares pain. GE (and on DC-10/40, Pratt) exploited the RR(1971) Ltd. confusion: RB211 "doomed".
US' carriers had split 1968, TW/EA launching L.10; AA/UA: DC-10, deferring breakeven for both. Douglas' new paymaster, McDonnell sank good $ after bad, MD-11...and expired into Boeing; Lockheed's new paymaster after C-5 bailout, US taxpayer, after -500 dumped twin/upgrades...merged with Martin and became mighty. Civil design soaks cash; easier to build bits to others' designs; "best", in engineering and feel, may not win at market. See GD: CV.990 - fastest, lostest, v.chunks of DC-10/747 - low-risk, high margin.
US' carriers had split 1968, TW/EA launching L.10; AA/UA: DC-10, deferring breakeven for both. Douglas' new paymaster, McDonnell sank good $ after bad, MD-11...and expired into Boeing; Lockheed's new paymaster after C-5 bailout, US taxpayer, after -500 dumped twin/upgrades...merged with Martin and became mighty. Civil design soaks cash; easier to build bits to others' designs; "best", in engineering and feel, may not win at market. See GD: CV.990 - fastest, lostest, v.chunks of DC-10/747 - low-risk, high margin.
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Oh, 411A, old chap.
Ilyushin 86 ties equal for this. In fact no Soviet/Russian widebody of any generation has ever had such an incident.
Ilyushin 86 ties equal for this. In fact no Soviet/Russian widebody of any generation has ever had such an incident.
Accident Database: Accident Synopsis 07282002
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Why'd Everyone's Favorite Airplane fail?
I've always seen the L1011 as a case where the "best" product in terms of engineering and design excellence (including features and performance) fails at the hands of a "mediocre" design. Mediocre in all other ways except for cost, that is (at least in the short term).
Plus the widebody twin revolution came along and put a short end to both the L1011 and the DC-10 before too long.
Add in the political issues and that's about all it takes.
--Nick
I've always seen the L1011 as a case where the "best" product in terms of engineering and design excellence (including features and performance) fails at the hands of a "mediocre" design. Mediocre in all other ways except for cost, that is (at least in the short term).
Plus the widebody twin revolution came along and put a short end to both the L1011 and the DC-10 before too long.
Add in the political issues and that's about all it takes.
--Nick
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PS: flys very nicely, too...thank you very much.
A true pilots aeroplane.
A true pilots aeroplane.
Facinating info!!
Was the L1011 a little underpowered for it's size? I know DL flew a mix of -200's and -500's. Were the -500's fitted with a higher trust version of the RB211?
Despite the poor dispatch reliability, I loved these birds.
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Any L1011's still flying??
Saw one at Nairobi late on Wednesday 25th. No titles, never before seen - by me at least - dark blue and white colour scheme (ie, not left over from any recognised previous operator). Too dark to see the full registration, but nosewheel doors carried 'SGI' and was named 'ZAMZAM'. Anyone any ideas on whose and what?
Martinair use NBO, but the colour scheme doesn't correspond.
Edit. Unless JY-SGI has come out of storage, ex Delta originally, white top and blue cheat line?
Edit. Unless JY-SGI has come out of storage, ex Delta originally, white top and blue cheat line?
Last edited by Newforest2; 27th Mar 2009 at 23:22. Reason: Addt. info.
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Saw an L1011 2000ft above me today, northbound over France, with a BA B737, A319ish type between us going the other way.
Got a great photo! Reminded me of my MCC Course in the 1011, loved every hour on the sim.
Lucky we weren't flying a reporter, that would be classed as a near miss, and all those schools, hospitals et all below us!
T'was a great end to a day's flying...
Got a great photo! Reminded me of my MCC Course in the 1011, loved every hour on the sim.
Lucky we weren't flying a reporter, that would be classed as a near miss, and all those schools, hospitals et all below us!
T'was a great end to a day's flying...
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Any L1011's still flying
ah i miss the old tri-stars (air atlanta, air transat, RAF . .) happy if noisy days! *overcome with waves of early 21st C nostalgia* . . cockpit like a greenhouse, HUGE windows!!!
TMD
TMD
Re post #9 the white cloud from the engine was unburnt fuel. The early RB211-22 engines were very slow to ignite the fuel and get the fire going during a cold start and pumped copious amounts of fuel vapour out the back.
Re post #27 the -200, -250, -500 all had RB211-524 engines which were the same as used in RR powered 747's (modified to suit the L1011).
Why did the L1011 not sell as well as the DC10?
Basically Lockheed screwed themselves. In the begining Lockheed proposed building two versions, a L1011-1 domestic version (which was built) and a L1011-2 version which was a dedicated long range aircraft with completely new wing etc. Lockheed disparaged MDC's plan to build a longrange derivative of the DC10-10 domestic version saying it would not be as efficient as their plan. In the end Lockheed could not afford to go ahead with the L1011-2 and MDC captured the market with the DC10-30/-40 long range variant which had been planned from the start. The L1011-500 was a shortened fuselage version of the L1011-1 that had a limited niche in the market.
The DC10-30 was a very capable longrange aircraft with great appeal to airlines not needing something as big as a 747-200.
Lockheed never produced a freighter version of the L1011 but did offer a conversion and there are(were) one or two around.
MDC had built DC10 freighters and combi's in production so the engineering was largely done for conversions.
Converted DC10's made better freighters than L1011's because the DC10-30 airframe was much more capable from the outset and did not need much conversion work. I think even a DC10-10 domestic version offered better freighter performance than a Tristar freighter due to differences in max landing weight and max zero fuel weight. Lockheed did offer a freighter conversion but the amount of work to go from a -1 version to a viable freighter was huge as was the cost.
Re post #27 the -200, -250, -500 all had RB211-524 engines which were the same as used in RR powered 747's (modified to suit the L1011).
Why did the L1011 not sell as well as the DC10?
Basically Lockheed screwed themselves. In the begining Lockheed proposed building two versions, a L1011-1 domestic version (which was built) and a L1011-2 version which was a dedicated long range aircraft with completely new wing etc. Lockheed disparaged MDC's plan to build a longrange derivative of the DC10-10 domestic version saying it would not be as efficient as their plan. In the end Lockheed could not afford to go ahead with the L1011-2 and MDC captured the market with the DC10-30/-40 long range variant which had been planned from the start. The L1011-500 was a shortened fuselage version of the L1011-1 that had a limited niche in the market.
The DC10-30 was a very capable longrange aircraft with great appeal to airlines not needing something as big as a 747-200.
Lockheed never produced a freighter version of the L1011 but did offer a conversion and there are(were) one or two around.
MDC had built DC10 freighters and combi's in production so the engineering was largely done for conversions.
Converted DC10's made better freighters than L1011's because the DC10-30 airframe was much more capable from the outset and did not need much conversion work. I think even a DC10-10 domestic version offered better freighter performance than a Tristar freighter due to differences in max landing weight and max zero fuel weight. Lockheed did offer a freighter conversion but the amount of work to go from a -1 version to a viable freighter was huge as was the cost.
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Anyone any ideas on whose and what?
A -250 model, ex-DAL.
Can be seen in HLLT quite regularly.
A very nice aeroplane.
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the white cloud from the engine was unburnt fuel. The early RB211-22 engines were very slow to ignite the fuel and get the fire going during a cold start and pumped copious amounts of fuel vapour out the back.
We had a Tristar with -22Bs that only flew at the weekends from ARN in the winter. So Friday mornings we went out, swept the snow out of the intakes ( and the S duct), and started it up. As it started to rotate, the oil press went off-scale high, and the oil quantity went down to zero. Then fuel/ign on, and after about 30 secs the grumble starts, and stops, and starts again as the engine staggers into life. Enrich ON, and watch the TGT. It took 3-4 mins of starter engagement to get to self sustaining. The oil could take ages to warm up, then the pressure slowly came down, and finally the oil qty recovered.
There were many changes of the start design, different bleed valves powered etc but the problem on the -22B was the surge line was so close to the steady running line, there was not much accel fuel available, until you got to flight idle.
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Quote:
Owned/operated by SAM Intercontinental Group, presently flying for the United Nations
Thanks 411A; the SLF were all in uniforms and blue hats so that's the one.
As for the TriStar being, Quote:
"best" product in terms of engineering and design excellence (including features and performance)
At one point a member of the cabin crew popped up out of the emergency hatch above the flight deck and proceeded to pour the contents of a 2 litre bottle of water down on to the windshields while the flight crew operated the wipers!
Even me mum's Ford Ka is fitted with windscreen washers
Owned/operated by SAM Intercontinental Group, presently flying for the United Nations
Thanks 411A; the SLF were all in uniforms and blue hats so that's the one.
As for the TriStar being, Quote:
"best" product in terms of engineering and design excellence (including features and performance)
At one point a member of the cabin crew popped up out of the emergency hatch above the flight deck and proceeded to pour the contents of a 2 litre bottle of water down on to the windshields while the flight crew operated the wipers!
Even me mum's Ford Ka is fitted with windscreen washers
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Even me mum's Ford Ka is fitted with windscreen washers
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A total of 16 L-1011's were converted to freighters.
There was one (1) L-1011-1, eleven (11) -200's and four (4) -500's for the RAF.
The L-1011-1 was the first freighter the conversion was none without any Lockheed input. The conversion was started in Miami and completed Alabama. The remainder were accomplished by Marshall with full coperation of Lockheed.
There was one (1) L-1011-1, eleven (11) -200's and four (4) -500's for the RAF.
The L-1011-1 was the first freighter the conversion was none without any Lockheed input. The conversion was started in Miami and completed Alabama. The remainder were accomplished by Marshall with full coperation of Lockheed.
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Saw one a few years ago in Entebbe, rumour was that they were having trouble with its AWC and were trying to get it re-registered. The only things I can remember about it were that it took up one of the few refuelling bays at Entebbe whilst work was being carried out on it. The Airport Authority tried on several occasions to have it moved to the old Entebbe ramp which is now used mainly by the UN, whoever represented this a/c always promised that it would be gone in a "couple" of days. I remember it was a pax a/c that had been stripped out to carry freight, obviously it had no freight door, and I believe it made one attempt to carry boxes of fish but the loading time was horrendous and that was possibly the only attempt that was made. The only other distinguishing thing I can remember was that it had a girl's name painted on the nose, "Natalie", I think. This same a/c also did some "static" time on the cargo ramp at DXB, before being moved on. The last time I saw it, it was in RKT with a damaged belly hold door. Does anyone else remember this "bird" or its history?
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Always had an interest in TriStars and was surprised to see this TriStar at Sydney in November 2004. It had no titles – white overall with red blue cheat lines along the windows which I later learnt was its old basic Tradewinds colours.
Various bits if research on the web has revealed its colourful history.
It’s a -200 series originally delivered to Gulf Air on 18 December 1980 as N92TA; and in service with Gulf Air between 1980 and 1990 when finally reregistered as A40-TA on 19 June 1990.
Then followed a varied career shuttling between storage in Cambridge UK and being bought by Tradewinds in the States with subleases to Guyana, Air Holland, Airtours and Tunis Air. In summer 2004 it was bought by Universal Air Trading, ferried to Dakar and re-registered as 3D-AAB. Then bought by West Air then in November 2004 bought by AeroLift. It then flew Johannesburg – Calcutta - Philippines in ex-Tradewinds colours with no titles and was re-registered as 9Q-CVN on 18 November 2004 had an in-flight engine shutdown prompting a landing at Cairns when with no titles it was named "Natali".
It was ferried to Sydney for further work on 20 November 2004 and left I believe by Christmas that year. It was later seen in Karachi, Pakistan on 31 December 2004, in Sofia, Bulgaria on 14 January 2005 and was bought on 18 April 2005 by Vadim Lahktin, leased to Almiron Aviation in Uganda and re-registered as 5X-AAL. Almiron was a new cargo operator in the region and planned to operate specialized charter flights between Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Their first revenue cargo service was operated at the beginning of April 2005 between Dubai and Lagos. It was seen in service in Johannesburg on 11 May 2005 still with no titles and in basic Tradewinds colours. The Internet is full of stories about a dubious awarding of its airworthiness certification in Uganda.
On 13 July 2005 at 1545hrs it skidded off runway on landing in a heavy downpour in Lagos, Nigeria which closed the airport for 2 days although there were no injuries. Various reports state it was flying illegally, that it had been seized by the Lagos authorities but the owner reporting it was only a rumour, it was a minor incident, the aircraft was released and in service again by 13 August 2005. Other reports saying that early in 2005, Almiron Aviation [South Africa] had entered into a cooperation agreement of L-1011-200 5X-AAL (msn 1201) with its owners (one Vadim Lahktin).
However, since the aircraft's subsequent registration in Uganda, it was beset with technical problems and its stated that the owner did not posses the Supplementary Type Certificate he required to perform the conversion from a passenger aircraft to a so-called "bulk-load" freighter. Not being able to comply with the Aviation Authorities of Uganda anymore, the aircraft's owner planned to re-register the aircraft in Kyrgizstan. On 2 October 2005 it was reported as seen parked at Ras al Khaimah in United Arab Emirates.
I believe this is also the final resting place of ex British Airways -1 series TriStars G-BBAF & G-BBAH - aircraft that we also used as freighters in their final years although always using the passenger doors which must have limited the freight carriage somewhat.
Last report I can find states it as being returned ex lease to Vadim Lahktin and stored at Ras al Khaimah.
All the above apart from my own sighting is sourced from the web - which as we all know is not renowned for its accuracy.
Various bits if research on the web has revealed its colourful history.
It’s a -200 series originally delivered to Gulf Air on 18 December 1980 as N92TA; and in service with Gulf Air between 1980 and 1990 when finally reregistered as A40-TA on 19 June 1990.
Then followed a varied career shuttling between storage in Cambridge UK and being bought by Tradewinds in the States with subleases to Guyana, Air Holland, Airtours and Tunis Air. In summer 2004 it was bought by Universal Air Trading, ferried to Dakar and re-registered as 3D-AAB. Then bought by West Air then in November 2004 bought by AeroLift. It then flew Johannesburg – Calcutta - Philippines in ex-Tradewinds colours with no titles and was re-registered as 9Q-CVN on 18 November 2004 had an in-flight engine shutdown prompting a landing at Cairns when with no titles it was named "Natali".
It was ferried to Sydney for further work on 20 November 2004 and left I believe by Christmas that year. It was later seen in Karachi, Pakistan on 31 December 2004, in Sofia, Bulgaria on 14 January 2005 and was bought on 18 April 2005 by Vadim Lahktin, leased to Almiron Aviation in Uganda and re-registered as 5X-AAL. Almiron was a new cargo operator in the region and planned to operate specialized charter flights between Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Their first revenue cargo service was operated at the beginning of April 2005 between Dubai and Lagos. It was seen in service in Johannesburg on 11 May 2005 still with no titles and in basic Tradewinds colours. The Internet is full of stories about a dubious awarding of its airworthiness certification in Uganda.
On 13 July 2005 at 1545hrs it skidded off runway on landing in a heavy downpour in Lagos, Nigeria which closed the airport for 2 days although there were no injuries. Various reports state it was flying illegally, that it had been seized by the Lagos authorities but the owner reporting it was only a rumour, it was a minor incident, the aircraft was released and in service again by 13 August 2005. Other reports saying that early in 2005, Almiron Aviation [South Africa] had entered into a cooperation agreement of L-1011-200 5X-AAL (msn 1201) with its owners (one Vadim Lahktin).
However, since the aircraft's subsequent registration in Uganda, it was beset with technical problems and its stated that the owner did not posses the Supplementary Type Certificate he required to perform the conversion from a passenger aircraft to a so-called "bulk-load" freighter. Not being able to comply with the Aviation Authorities of Uganda anymore, the aircraft's owner planned to re-register the aircraft in Kyrgizstan. On 2 October 2005 it was reported as seen parked at Ras al Khaimah in United Arab Emirates.
I believe this is also the final resting place of ex British Airways -1 series TriStars G-BBAF & G-BBAH - aircraft that we also used as freighters in their final years although always using the passenger doors which must have limited the freight carriage somewhat.
Last report I can find states it as being returned ex lease to Vadim Lahktin and stored at Ras al Khaimah.
All the above apart from my own sighting is sourced from the web - which as we all know is not renowned for its accuracy.
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Ex Caledonian Tristars
Anyone know what happend to tt-dae and tt-dwe ex Caledonian tristars
flew on one of these in 1999 to Rhodes Ithink one is in Manas kyrgistan
laid up according to german lockheed web page?
flew on one of these in 1999 to Rhodes Ithink one is in Manas kyrgistan
laid up according to german lockheed web page?