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American of Indian Descent Working in India?

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Old 6th Mar 2016, 23:55
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Question American of Indian Descent Working in India?

Hello,


My parents emigrated from India to the USA. I was born, raised in the USA. I have my FAA ATPL and 5500 hours of flight time.


I have work rights in India. I haven't flown professionally in a few years (other than flight instructing in Cessna and Pipers).


I am looking to return to aviation and I was wondering if I could go to India and get my license converted to an Indian ATPL and apply to Indian carriers such as Air India, Spice, Jet Airways, etc.?


If so, could someone please explain the process such as which flight school I could choose, how long it would take, would this be practical, etc.?


Also, is there anywhere I could get my ATPL converted in the USA?

Also, please do not suggest to stay in the USA, I'm no longer interested in this option.


Thanks.
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Old 7th Mar 2016, 02:22
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Why ?? there are so many better jobs in the USA
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Old 8th Mar 2016, 22:28
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check

check your PM
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Old 9th Mar 2016, 12:05
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Attn: aviationluver

Hi aviationluver!

Likely you have the OCI visa, like me, and want to fly in India. Just so you know I grew my in Queens-NY, lived there 32 years, and left 10.5 yeas ago for Asia, not to return except to visit family, etc

Sporadically, if you have jet time, 500 hours on Type, then you have a good chance, it won't happen instantly, but within Asia there will always be opportunities.

As for India, unless you know someone, or otherwise connected, or are willing to risk a few years salary upfront for a job that may lay you off 6 months latter, stay out of India.

Not sure if you speak Hindi / Tamil but you will be resented and unappreciated as there are many many many Indian Citizens, born and raised, that are fighting hard as hell for the exact same position.

Unlike you they will not have other options, many will fade away into other professions.

Good luck!
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Old 11th Mar 2016, 20:35
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@aviationluver

If you are able to obtain an Indian ATP license you would be in big demand for most airlines as they can hire you , train you and after flying for a year or two as co pilot they can upgrade you to captain very quickly considering experienced captains are in very short numbers in this part of the world.

While there is a large pool of unemployed pilots in India they are mostly CPL holders fresh out of flight school. That being said dont be surprised if an airline does not hire you and instead prefers a type rated guy with no hours on type.

You will also need to pass the psychometric tests conducted by the airlines as the german wings crash has spooked the Indian DGCA and now made it mandatory for all airlines to conduct the same before hiring a pilot.

Naturally your pay wont equal that of an expat pilot as you will be paid like the locals. While most airline pilots in India make a decent amount of money and can live a comfortable life it will be nowhere near what pilots make in the U.S . Considering the U.S dollar is becoming more expensive by the day you might not make enough money to sustain a home or family or pay off debts you might have back in the U.S


The conversion process be it a foreigner, an Indian citizen or PIO/OCI holder is mostly a nightmare. If you haven't dealt with the Indian bureaucracy before the whole process can be quite daunting.

1. The biggest stumbling block PIO/OCI card holders face the is the educational qualification requirement.
The Indian DGCA requires a CPL or ATPL holder to passed the Indian equivalent of 10th grade and 12th grade and you must have had maths and physics as subjects in the 12th grade.
If you don't have this then you cannot proceed forward with the Indian license conversion . One way around this would be to enrol and pass the Indian equivalent of maths and physics from the National Institute of Open Schooling ( NIOS ) in India. You dont need to score very high marks . Justr enough to declare you passed.
I am assuming all your schooling was done in the United States . That means you will need a certificate from the Association of Indian Universities in New Delhi stating that you hold the Indian equivalent to the 10th and 12th

You will also need a letter of verification from your school board stating that your mark sheets of 10th and 12th are original as per their records ( similar to an FAA license verification letter )

2. While you are sorting out the educational requirements you will need to get an Indian DGCA medical. The Indian DGCA medical is a lot more thorough than the FAA one. You need to get a Class 2 medical first. Once you get the Class 2 medical you will get a file number using which you can apply for a Class 1 medical.
The medical is the next stumbling block you to need to overcome.
The file number is the basis on which all your pilot license details are stored at the DGCA

3. Once you get the educational requirements sorted out you can apply for a Computer Number . A computer number is issued once to a pilot and is valid for life. You use the computer number to apply for ATPCG ( conversion papers ) in which you need to pass the subjects of General Navigation , Radio Aids and Instruments , Meteorology and Air Regulations . You will need to pass two oral exams as well .
The Indian DGCA follows the EASA ATPL syllabus word for word with some extra topics for Indian Climatology and Indian Air Regs

The Indian DGCA ATPL exams are only conducted 4 times a year and not on demand as in the FAA system

You can read the syllabus here
http://www.dgca.nic.in/cars/d7b-b6.pdf


4. Flying wise you are most likely going to exceed the DGCA requirements except the requirement to have 150 hours (300 hours if its co pilot time ) within the last 1 year and 10 hours PIC within the last 6 months .
Since you haven't flown for some time you can find work as a flight instructor in the U.S and you can easily meet this requirement.
You also need to undergo the Indian equivalent of a checkride ( know as General Flying Test ) by day and night and an IR check as well at an Indian flight school.

Study this form for applying for ATPL license . It will answer most of your questions and all the paperwork needed to apply for the license.

http://www.dgca.nic.in/forms/crew-d/atpl_aR.pdf

Expect to collect a mountain of paperwork from places you have flown or just enough to certify the 1500 hours of of flying and other requirements . Dont expect the DGCA to believe your logbook blindly. They will want paperwork to justify the same. You can see the list in the form above.

When it comes to cross country time the DGCA counts a flight as cross country only if you have flown to a point outside a 100nm radius of the departure aerodrome

5. Another headache is the Indian Radio license . My suggestion is to head over to Canada and convert and obtain a Canadian CPL/ATPL and a Canadian RT license. This way you can skip exams in India and convert directly since licenses are from Commonwealth countries are converted easily.

You are also going to need security clearances from the Ministry of Home Affairs ( MHA ) at various stages even though you hold an PIO/OCI card . Similar to how the TSA requires clearance for foreigners.

They wont give the security clearance to you. They will only forward it to the authority that requests the same. You will need security clearance for applying for the RT license , obtaining a computer number and finally when the license is issued as well. Security clearances can take a few months to get issued.


From my conservative estimates its going to take atleast a year or more to get all the paperwork in order and to pass the dgca written and oral exams

Good luck
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Old 11th Mar 2016, 20:58
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cyrilroy21,

That post is just about the most depressing thing I've read in a very long time. A job sweeping out the hangar sounds like a better option. :-))

"...they can upgrade you to captain very quickly considering experienced captains are in very short numbers in this part of the world. "

If experienced pilots are in short supply, why are so many serious barriers put in the path of someone as experienced as the OP ?

Just trying to understand how the rest of the world works.

Last edited by bafanguy; 11th Mar 2016 at 21:53.
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Old 11th Mar 2016, 22:16
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@bafanguy

Well to put it in a simple sentence " Those that understand aviation are not in control of it "
Very few people in India get the " big picture " with respect to the importance of aviation. Unfortunately they are either working for the airlines on in some big consultancy firms.

Indian Aviation is heavily regulated and the Government of India maintains an iron grip on it. Its in control of politicians and bureaucrats who come and go every few years. Aviation is run on the whim and fancy of those in charge despite the fact that they have no experience in dealing with anything related to aviation whatsoever.

Also given the India's inherently socialistic nature Aviation is continued to be seen as a luxury even though its an absolute necessity. This results in step motherly treatment to its problems. Even if a political party tries to help aviation this is seen as helping the rich and avoiding the common man's problems. Since they do not wish to alienate the vote banks they dilly dally on many aviation issues.
This is further compounded by the fact that a large part of the population continues to believe that aviation is a rich mans toy. Which is also why the industry is heavily taxed. Indian aviation is a very high cost environment.

The state where are I am from has been trying to get seaplane services started for quite some time. Unfortunately the local opposition party managed to convince the fishermen that seaplanes are a threat to fish in the rivers and the seas and hence will affect their livelihood

The only time any action is made is when planes are not flying due to lack of pilots. A good example of this would be back in 2006 during the second Indian Aviation boom the govt lowered the flying hours for CPL issue from 250 hours to 200 and later increased the retirement age to 65.

I sometimes consider it a miracle that an airplane is even allowed to takeoff and land let alone allow a private or govt company run an airline . Remember private companies were only allowed to run airlines and non scheduled services since the year 1990 when the govt of the time initiated major reforms.

The airlines here have done an excellent job despite all the difficulties the govt has created.

Unless the aircraft are parked on the ground or there is a serious change in mindset as to the importance of aviation to a country... things will continue to remain the same

Last edited by cyrilroy21; 12th Mar 2016 at 11:02.
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Old 12th Mar 2016, 12:25
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cyrilroy21,


"Unless the aircraft are parked on the ground or there is a serious change in mindset as to the importance of aviation to a country... things will continue to remain the same..."

Yes, that pretty much says it all.
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Old 17th Mar 2016, 02:25
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I am married to an Indian and therefore have had my PIO/ OCI for the past 10 years.

In short, just living in India is a major PITA. Working there even harder. Getting pilot-certified there under the Indian DGCA? An exercise in futility, maybe even insanity.

As previous posters stated. Not easy.

I have worked in India as a pilot on a DGCA FATA, exercising my US FAA ATP, flying for a large carrier there. THAT is the only way to go, IMO... working for a carrier there on an expat contract. Sure there were downsides to it but compared to what the local pilots have to put up with, I wouldn't have it any other way.

I have worked there 3 different periods in my career over two different contracts, all totaling nearly 5 years. Lived there that entire time and even educated my kids there. I wouldn't go back, not to work anyway. I go back periodically for family visits, afterall, my kids are half Indian so we keep them connected with that part of their heritage. But life is too short to put up with the never-ending bs that Indian bureaucracy is known for, which is what you will have to endure on any contract gig there. It's never easy for any party involved, be it the gov't worker, the contractor, or the company sponsoring you.

I won't go so far as to say that I regret it. But I would never do it again. In fact, I'd probably quit aviation altogether before I would chose to fly as an airline pilot there again. But I'm older and wiser now. Maybe that's part of it.

Your best bet is to leverage your experience and get into a US regional airline job as quickly as possible. You'd end up making captain in no time at all and once you have some Jet PIC under your belt you will be competitive for a US legacy gig. Or you could jump over to corporate, probably just as fast a career path to a US legacy job but could more interesting if you get on with an outfit that does a lot of international. Point being, use either paths to set yourself up for that coveted US Legacy airline slot. Believe me, it's worth the time and effort to get to a US legacy. But nobody is going to hand it to you. You have to put in the effort to jump through the hoops.

I have a lot of friends who refused to engage in that path. Today they still hop from carrier to carrier every few years never quite accomplishing their lifestyle goals. I hunkered down on the legacy route years ago and it's finally paying off. I mostly sit reserve as a 737 captain but typically only fly 30-35 hrs per month, some months I don't fly at all. Pay-wise I pull in $250K/ yr, usually 78-83 hrs of pay per month. Each month on reserve I get 12-13 days off in a row. If I want to fly a line I can make more hours but it's a lot of work for only a couple thousand more in pay. No thanks. If I really want to cruise I can bid WB FO and make more than I make as a reserve captain. Most of my buddies flying as FO on the WBs are averaging 20 days off per month... AVERAGE. We stay at the best hotels, fly new equipment, have tons of time off and average $50K/ year into our retirement funds. So yes, working for a legacy carrier is everything it is cracked up to be and more.

I'm not mentioning any of this to brag. Just showing that hard work towards the seniority-driven path, that US legacies are known for, pays off after a while. The beginning sucks, but it just gets better after the 10 year point. These boards are full of contract pilots who refuse to downgrade themselves to the bottom slot on a seniority list, flying as FO, and would rather take DEC jobs instead. That's one way to play the career but it has very little value after a few years because contract gigs are usually short lived or have very little protections and/ or upside for the pilot.

BTW, most of my NB FOs on the 737 make more money that I do. They pick up trips on their days off. So you can make plenty of money as an FO at a legacy as well. Me, I'm too lazy. I figure 15,000 hrs is enough in the career so I do whatever I can to get paid not to work. Means a little less money in life but still plenty to do all the things I want while taking care of my family. The main thing is I'm not a slave to the job.

But it all starts with that first step at a US regional airline. Generally speaking, that is the most predictable path to the enviable US legacy airline pilot position. Unless you're a fighter pilot for the US military.

You just need to get current. That's pretty easy to do. I took some time off in the down turn of the early 1990s. I hadn't flown for 5 years. All I did was immerse myself in getting current and flying a lot. I think I did around 200 hrs in a few months and a regional airline picked me up thereafter. The fact that I had 1500 hrs prior to that was what made me competitive. If you have 5500 hrs, all you need to do is get a quick 100 hrs and you're golden.

Last edited by Geebz; 17th Mar 2016 at 02:47.
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Old 17th Mar 2016, 08:12
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Geebz couldn't have said it better
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Old 17th Mar 2016, 20:35
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If this is an accurate forecast, is it wise for the Indian government to allow its constipated bureaucracy to continue as is ? Maybe they'll be wishing they'd made it easier for aviationluver ?

Airbus forecasts 1,600 new aircraft for India by 2034 | Airframes content from ATWOnline

[of course, there's no way to specify a net change in the number of airplanes by 2034]

Boeing's side of the story:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...mestic-423263/

Last edited by bafanguy; 18th Mar 2016 at 11:04.
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Old 19th Mar 2016, 04:08
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What an ungrateful poster in not thanking some great informative responses, especially from cyrilroy21 and Geebz, to say the least.

No wonder many just not bothered to help, with such attitude, we all are sure heading south in all areas of our profession.

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Old 19th Mar 2016, 07:57
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India Aviation Report says country to become third largest aviation market by 2020 | Business Standard Mobile Website
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Old 19th Mar 2016, 08:18
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That means nothing. Indian aviation authorities are absolutely useless
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Old 19th Mar 2016, 13:36
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where you going to park all these planes, the airspace system and airports simple cannot support any more aircraft in reality
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Old 22nd Mar 2016, 05:25
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Add More of Everything.Augment Capacity.
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Old 4th Apr 2016, 16:57
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There is a place in Florida that does the converting and Ohio I believe
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Old 4th Apr 2016, 17:09
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Hey.....

So if i convert from FAA to Canadian and than convert to DGCA, what steps am I going to be exempt from?

The 12th grade?
Paperwork?
Taking the math, physics courses?

Can you please explain
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Old 5th Apr 2016, 16:15
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@Ks747ever

Converting to Canada will only benefit in obtaining the radio license.

You cant escape the educational requirements or other requirements for that matter.
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Old 10th Apr 2016, 18:33
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@ geebz
Great post sir...

@ Cyril ..,

How are you bud...??

Great post, very informative as usual..

@ the Original Poster or anyone in fact....

If you have the right to work in the United States & you have ATP minimums, basically > 1500 hrs TT & 25 hrs multi, you can basically walk into ANY regional of your choice, which is operating CRJ 700/900 or Emb170/175..

You will be wecolmed with open arms, in fact multiple airline recruiters will be hounding you to join them..

They will pay you $10,000 to $15,000 US Dollars as joining bonus and ask you what is your availability or preferred joining date... The interview will be like let's grab a coffee or something & talk...

YEAH.....

After About 3 months of training & about a One year or so on the line & 1000 hrs in 121 (Airline) environment, you can choose to either upgrade to a Captain or move on to something like Frontier or Spirit flying Airbus 320..

Then you can choose to stay there or keep trying for a Legacy like United Delta or American..

Why deal with DGCA...????? Unless you have a fascination for India.
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