Working as a Pilot in China
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Mana,
Sorry where did I say "the local guys can't fly, can't run an airline, and are basically worse in all aspects than the expats", what I said was the emphasis on certain aspects of an Airline operation/operating airplanes in Asia is different to that of some other airline cultures. Different airline cultures place greater emphasis on different elements.
"the SOP way of running airlines is alive and well in Europe too. Look at the LoCo P2F airlines where they detail when to set flaps, when to select gear down, and the way they treat those who do wrong."
Yes this is true all airlines pride themselves on their adherence to SOPs, however I would suggest that the different order of priorities in most Western airlines is.
1) Ability to fly the airplane.
2) Ability to manage the Flight Deck especially in a non-normal/abnormal situation.
3) SOPs.
"and the way they treat those who do wrong".
How do they treat those who do wrong? I have only seen willful negligence punished never human error, being caught out once in a while. And treating people differently due to race is not acceptable or tolerated in mist Western Countries.
Cleve.
I can also turn your statements upside down, and say that in those airlines I have worked, the expats always claim that the local guys can't fly, can't run an airline, and are basically worse in all aspects than the expats.
"the SOP way of running airlines is alive and well in Europe too. Look at the LoCo P2F airlines where they detail when to set flaps, when to select gear down, and the way they treat those who do wrong."
Yes this is true all airlines pride themselves on their adherence to SOPs, however I would suggest that the different order of priorities in most Western airlines is.
1) Ability to fly the airplane.
2) Ability to manage the Flight Deck especially in a non-normal/abnormal situation.
3) SOPs.
"and the way they treat those who do wrong".
How do they treat those who do wrong? I have only seen willful negligence punished never human error, being caught out once in a while. And treating people differently due to race is not acceptable or tolerated in mist Western Countries.
Cleve.
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Why?
(Potentially stupid) question from this SLF:
*Why* do the Chinese airlines pay so much to expats?
China has >1 billion citizens, they should be easily able to educate enough of them to become pilots. The salaries they're offering to expats are so high that they're comparable to someone in the US making $100k PER MONTH! Somehow, I can't imagine they lack candidates...
Is it possible that someone there knows about the cultural difference and uses it to improve the safety overall because he knows that the asian pilot will just follow the SOPs, no matter what happens, while the expat pilot has his skills and airmanship to fall back on in a situation that's not covered by an SOP?
From what I read here, the asian pilots function rather like a quite versatile autopilot, one that could quite possibly be rolled out fairly soon by Airbus or Boeing.
As an SLF, I'd still want a well-trained captain on board to deal with unforeseen problems, not a redundant autopilot^W^Wasian pilot...
(Now crawling back under my damp rock... ;-))
*Why* do the Chinese airlines pay so much to expats?
China has >1 billion citizens, they should be easily able to educate enough of them to become pilots. The salaries they're offering to expats are so high that they're comparable to someone in the US making $100k PER MONTH! Somehow, I can't imagine they lack candidates...
Is it possible that someone there knows about the cultural difference and uses it to improve the safety overall because he knows that the asian pilot will just follow the SOPs, no matter what happens, while the expat pilot has his skills and airmanship to fall back on in a situation that's not covered by an SOP?
From what I read here, the asian pilots function rather like a quite versatile autopilot, one that could quite possibly be rolled out fairly soon by Airbus or Boeing.
As an SLF, I'd still want a well-trained captain on board to deal with unforeseen problems, not a redundant autopilot^W^Wasian pilot...
(Now crawling back under my damp rock... ;-))
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while the expat pilot has his skills and airmanship to fall back on in a situation that's not covered by an SOP?
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Wow this head has really brought out the bigots! The tone of the op towards anyone who reports they had a different experience suggests they have an agenda and no interest in any experience that doesn't validate this.
The fact the book uses the oxygen masks above 25,000 feet story to prosecute the Chinese is enough to cast doubt on the reader on how much of any of it you should take seriously. And also the authors own aviation knowledge?
As for claims of SOPs ruling compared to airmanship, we're always reading on other boards about the new breed of magenta line SOP monkeys on Western airlines, and the poor safety cultures of management. It's all very ministry of truth how that is being scrubbed for the sake of condemning other cultures.
And as for anecdotes about toursts in thailand, aren't pilots supposed to be rational? Not sure what it has to do with anything, but go and look at Aussies in Bali who are the most grotesque example of a single nation I've ever seen. Does that make them terrible pilots?
And yes, look at accidents. This comes across as a bitter person, who won't let it go. Some people can't and shouldn't attempt to live in other cultures.
The fact the book uses the oxygen masks above 25,000 feet story to prosecute the Chinese is enough to cast doubt on the reader on how much of any of it you should take seriously. And also the authors own aviation knowledge?
As for claims of SOPs ruling compared to airmanship, we're always reading on other boards about the new breed of magenta line SOP monkeys on Western airlines, and the poor safety cultures of management. It's all very ministry of truth how that is being scrubbed for the sake of condemning other cultures.
And as for anecdotes about toursts in thailand, aren't pilots supposed to be rational? Not sure what it has to do with anything, but go and look at Aussies in Bali who are the most grotesque example of a single nation I've ever seen. Does that make them terrible pilots?
And yes, look at accidents. This comes across as a bitter person, who won't let it go. Some people can't and shouldn't attempt to live in other cultures.
RealUlli, in answer to your question: Chinese airlines not only pay expats that much, locals earn just about the same.
They have plenty of candidates, but a shortage of qualified and experienced pilots ready to be a captain.
They have plenty of candidates, but a shortage of qualified and experienced pilots ready to be a captain.
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Thanks for the replies.
Nothing like facts to deflate windy arguments like mine. 
The same goes for Brits in the Mediterranean, Germans in Mallorca, Russians in Egypt and Turkey, ... (I'm sure there are examples for all other nations, too, these are just the ones that popped into my head)
Morale: never judge a nation by the worst behaviour of their tourists.
The reason why I had the suspicion I posted is, I've been to China quite a few times. What I noted is, they build really nice parks that are absolutely gorgeous when they are new. On the other hand, I can't figure out why they always seem to let them go to waste in very short order (they seem to forget to water the lawns, etc...). I've suspected that while they did hire people to maintain the park, they forgot to write an instruction to water the lawn when it's dry.
In a Tom Clancy novel, one of the Americans compared the Chinese to the Klingons. Sometimes I got the impression that comparison was not too far off the mark - I always tend to assume that when I can talk to someone, he must have a similar culture. My mistake, I know. Adjusting to the Chinese culture it harder than it looks. ;-)
So, they really have a shortage and are willing to face the facts. Unlike a lot of western (regional?) airlines who appear to have only a shortage of pilots willing to work for peanuts.
Again, thanks for the answers.
Originally Posted by The Dominican
Sorry to be the one to bring this up but....., if you look at all the accidents and incidents of the last decade worldwide......, one g stalls of heavy A/C's, landing on the wrong airports or even taxiways, CFIT, roll off the end of the runway, runway incursion, near miss incidents......, the vast majority have been with western crews at the helm
Originally Posted by neila83
And as for anecdotes about toursts in thailand, aren't pilots supposed to be rational? Not sure what it has to do with anything, but go and look at Aussies in Bali who are the most grotesque example of a single nation I've ever seen. Does that make them terrible pilots?
Morale: never judge a nation by the worst behaviour of their tourists.
The reason why I had the suspicion I posted is, I've been to China quite a few times. What I noted is, they build really nice parks that are absolutely gorgeous when they are new. On the other hand, I can't figure out why they always seem to let them go to waste in very short order (they seem to forget to water the lawns, etc...). I've suspected that while they did hire people to maintain the park, they forgot to write an instruction to water the lawn when it's dry.
In a Tom Clancy novel, one of the Americans compared the Chinese to the Klingons. Sometimes I got the impression that comparison was not too far off the mark - I always tend to assume that when I can talk to someone, he must have a similar culture. My mistake, I know. Adjusting to the Chinese culture it harder than it looks. ;-)
Originally Posted by safelife
They have plenty of candidates, but a shortage of qualified and experienced pilots ready to be a captain.
Again, thanks for the answers.
In a Tom Clancy novel, one of the Americans compared the Chinese to the Klingons. Sometimes I got the impression that comparison was not too far off the mark - I always tend to assume that when I can talk to someone, he must have a similar culture. My mistake, I know. Adjusting to the Chinese culture it harder than it looks. ;-)
Resistance is futile.
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My understanding of many of the issues in SE Asia is that "loss of face" is important (or rather the avoiding of) and the existence of a very hierarchical structure means that it is also important that your boss does not lose face either. Korean cockpit procedures got slated for this after a few fatal crashes and they did make a big effort to improve.
(Not to say that the rest of the world isn't immune either, just that some countries/airlines learned the value of proper CRM a lot earlier than others.)
Rightly or wrongly, I choose to avoid flying on airlines from certain countries because I perceive their safety as being poor. If everyone did that, they'd have great incentive to improve, but the absence of a few foreigners at the back of the aircraft is not going to change Chinese culture, given that they've got plenty of their own people to fly around. the only way to change the flight deck behaviour is by someone sitting in one of the seats and providing an education, and even that's unlikely to have much effect.
(Not to say that the rest of the world isn't immune either, just that some countries/airlines learned the value of proper CRM a lot earlier than others.)
Rightly or wrongly, I choose to avoid flying on airlines from certain countries because I perceive their safety as being poor. If everyone did that, they'd have great incentive to improve, but the absence of a few foreigners at the back of the aircraft is not going to change Chinese culture, given that they've got plenty of their own people to fly around. the only way to change the flight deck behaviour is by someone sitting in one of the seats and providing an education, and even that's unlikely to have much effect.
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I have worked in several parts of the world, and I recognize what you are saying Major.
I can also turn your statements upside down, and say that in those airlines I have worked, the expats always claim that the local guys can't fly, can't run an airline, and are basically worse in all aspects than the expats. Some expat nationalities are way "superior" than others. Other nationalities seem to fit in almost anywhere they go.
BTW, the SOP way of running airlines is alive and well in Europe too. Look at the LoCo P2F airlines where they detail when to set flaps, when to select gear down, and the way they treat those who do wrong.
Back to the book. There is a story about a captain who gets food poisoned. This is somehow blamed on the Chinese. This captain keeps flying several sectors while he pukes his guts out. I'm all for getting the job done, but he should have stood down after he filled the first barf bag. To continue was a bad decision.
The Chinese first officers are not allowed to do landings. Like it or not, that is the way it is. Yet, in the book, an expat captain allows a Chinese FO to land. This captain knows every flight is monitored. Still he lets the FO land, and when things go tits up (surprise!), he does not take command, but interferes with the controls and is surprised when the FO lets go of the controls. Nobody is on the throttles, and he nearly has a tail strike, and lands with 1.61 G.
Who is to blame? The Chinese FO who has hardly done any landings before, or the expat captain? A very bad decision by the captain.
Return to base when you encounter a CB? If the airway is closed due weather, and you are denied flying around it, what do you do? And if you divert and have the possibilty to bring the aircraft back to base or your point of departure, is that a bad decision?
Speaking of denied. Is it fair to say that denied diversions happens mostly when expats are flying? And the reason could be due to, say, an American who is asking for a diversion to a military or joint military/commercial airport?
I'm not saying everything is good in China (or SE Asia), but the picture is never just black or white.
ManaAdaSystem is offline Report Post
I can also turn your statements upside down, and say that in those airlines I have worked, the expats always claim that the local guys can't fly, can't run an airline, and are basically worse in all aspects than the expats. Some expat nationalities are way "superior" than others. Other nationalities seem to fit in almost anywhere they go.
BTW, the SOP way of running airlines is alive and well in Europe too. Look at the LoCo P2F airlines where they detail when to set flaps, when to select gear down, and the way they treat those who do wrong.
Back to the book. There is a story about a captain who gets food poisoned. This is somehow blamed on the Chinese. This captain keeps flying several sectors while he pukes his guts out. I'm all for getting the job done, but he should have stood down after he filled the first barf bag. To continue was a bad decision.
The Chinese first officers are not allowed to do landings. Like it or not, that is the way it is. Yet, in the book, an expat captain allows a Chinese FO to land. This captain knows every flight is monitored. Still he lets the FO land, and when things go tits up (surprise!), he does not take command, but interferes with the controls and is surprised when the FO lets go of the controls. Nobody is on the throttles, and he nearly has a tail strike, and lands with 1.61 G.
Who is to blame? The Chinese FO who has hardly done any landings before, or the expat captain? A very bad decision by the captain.
Return to base when you encounter a CB? If the airway is closed due weather, and you are denied flying around it, what do you do? And if you divert and have the possibilty to bring the aircraft back to base or your point of departure, is that a bad decision?
Speaking of denied. Is it fair to say that denied diversions happens mostly when expats are flying? And the reason could be due to, say, an American who is asking for a diversion to a military or joint military/commercial airport?
I'm not saying everything is good in China (or SE Asia), but the picture is never just black or white.
ManaAdaSystem is offline Report Post
Major Cleve,ever flown for a transport airline in china? I bet not.
And treating people differently due to race is not acceptable or tolerated in mist Western Countries.
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(Now crawling back under my damp rock... ;-))
In the airline i flew for,safety is number 1.
If you diverted,no questions asked.
If you denied boarding to crazy pax,no question asked.
If you continuously land long,have a hard landing,you will be getting free sim.(can hurt one ego but it makes you a better pilot.
FOQA monitoring is well used,some find it against their pilot liberty,some like me find it a good reason to get better and avoid any foqa.
If you thought to let your fo land when he was restricted because heck who writes these silly restrictions,we trust our pilots where i come from....and the fo tail strikes the brand new-900...,questions will be asked and fine may be imposed..
If the same pilot decides to land when against sop,(unstable..)...he will be shown the door.
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Great read! I don't consider changing my job, and my experience is not sought after in China. It is however a reminder that the grass does not get green enough just because the money is good. If one does not want to believe everything in this book, it is not too difficult to find the same information elsewhere. The bottom line is that flying in China is unsafe. All the money in the world can not change this fact. If it was safe, all the other crap is not worth it. But it is all the crap that makes it unsafe, so, no. If flying in China is the only option for a pilot-job, then do something else than being a pilot.
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Great read! I don't consider changing my job, and my experience is not sought after in China. It is however a reminder that the grass does not get green enough just because the money is good. If one does not want to believe everything in this book, it is not too difficult to find the same information elsewhere. The bottom line is that flying in China is unsafe. All the money in the world can not change this fact. If it was safe, all the other crap is not worth it. But it is all the crap that makes it unsafe, so, no. If flying in China is the only option for a pilot-job, then do something else than being a pilot.
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